He could not have died for them under God's Wrath !

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by savedbymercy, Apr 6, 2015.

  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    For its impossible for Christ's Death, that which propitiated the Wrath of God, for the sins of those Christ did die for, 1 Jn 2:2, its not possible that it was for all mankind without exception, simply because the scripture verifies that many are under God's Wrath Jn 3:36

    36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Now this would be impossible for anyone whom Christ's Death propitiated Gods wrath for !

    And again Eph 5:5-6

    5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

    6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

    Because of what things does the wrath of God come upon the children of disobedience ? Their sins, whoremongering, covetousness, idolatry and so forth.

    But thats impossible for any that Christ's Death has already propitiated God for their sins !

    Those Christ died for also was delivered from the wrath to come 1 Thess 1:10

    And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

    Remember when Jesus was raised from the dead, it was for the Justification of those whose sins He was delivered for Rom 4:25

    25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

    Again Col 3:5-6

    5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

    6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

    If Christ had died for them, God would have no wrath coming to them, and He would have been merciful upon their disobedience/unbelief , as He does for His Elect Rom 11:32

    32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that[IN ORDER THAT] he might have mercy upon all.

    That word disobedience in Eph 5:6 is the same word here in Rom 11:32 for unbelief,

    For He has mercy upon all for whom Christ's Death hath propitiated Him in behalf of.

    God has no wrath for those He has purposed to Have Mercy Upon for their disobedience !

    Heb 8:12

    For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
     
  2. Van

    Van
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    Yet another absurd argument from Calvinism's treasure chest of absurdities.

    1) First the mistaken view that Christ's death propitiated individuals. But that, wait for it, is yet another rewrite of scripture. Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.

    2) Now for the individuals who have been transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son, they have been propitiated, once for all time, their past sins, their present sins, and their future sins. God's wrath does not and never will abide on them.

    3) Then we get a rewrite of Romans 4:25. Jesus was delivered over because of "our" transgressions. Who is included in "our?" The whole world, 1 John 2:2.

    4) The same absurdity is offered yet again, equating Christ dying for people, with the act of Christ propitiating people. The difference between providing reconciliation and receiving reconciliation is beyond their grasp.
     
  3. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    Because He did not die for them !

    The reason why the wrath of God is upon men as in Jn 3:36

    36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    In the original the word abideth is in the present tense, the wrath of God is presently abiding on them which believe not !

    And why is it that the wrath of God shall yet come upon upon men as in Eph 5:6

    6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

    This wrath of God I believe is yet future as it refers to these scriptures Rom 2:5

    But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

    Rev 6:17

    For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Yet those of us He died for were delivered from that wrath by His death 1 Thess 1:10

    10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead[after having died for us], even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

    His Resurrection for us is proof that His death delivered us from the wrath to come !

    Now the reason for this wrath upon men is not so much because of their unbelief, but more importantly, its because Christ never propitiated Gods wrath as it concerned them, He never for them satisfied God Law and Justice against their sins ! He never was their Surety, He never knew them !
     
  4. savedbymercy

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    Did you understand the points I made in the post ? Please articulate them back to me to see if you did, then we can discuss them !
     
  5. Van

    Van
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    Hi SBM, why question my understanding? That is simply using a logical fallacy to support your mistaken views.

    1) Did you address when individuals are propitiated, when Christ died, or when individuals undergo the circumcision of Christ? Nope.

    2) Did you address why Christ became the propitiation for the whole world, if He only died for a subset of mankind? Nope

    Calvinism offers up the same bogus arguments over and over, and then when they are rejected, those rejecting are demeaned, belittled and disparaged. You would think a red flag would drop in their minds, but apparently they believe the use of logical fallacies is in the will of God.
     
  6. savedbymercy

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    Christ died for our sins according to scripture !

    Now one of the ways Christ died for our sins according to scripture besides as it fulfilled prophecy of scripture, it also was according to the types and shadows of scripture. One of those ways it[His death] for His People was typified under the Old Covenant was that by the Aaronic Priesthood. If you recall Aaron was the High Priest for the Sins of the Covenant People Israel ! Well likewise Christ was and is the High Priest of His People, not only from amongst the jews, but also from among the Gentiles/Nations, Heb 2:17

    17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

    Thats why all Nations of people were made by His Death a Kingdom of Priests as His Offspring Rev 5:9-10

    9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests:
    and we shall reign on the earth.

    The people here and in Heb 2:17 are not all Humanity, but an Elect People, the Children of Israel ; Now for example lets look at Ex 28:29-30

    29 And Aaron[The High Priest] shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the Lord continually.

    30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually.


    Now Cp Heb 9:24-25

    24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

    25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

    Hence the Offering in the prescence of the Lord as High Priest was specifically for the Children of Israel ! Aarom on the Day of Atonement as High Priest would confess the sins of the Children of Israel for the scapgoat to bear away Lev 16:20-22

    20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:

    21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

    22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

    Thats what Jn 1:29 had in mind, the taking away the sin of the world by the Lamb of God !

    The words taketh away are the greek word airĊ:


    I.to raise up, elevate, lift up

    A.to raise from the ground, take up: stones


    B.to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand


    C.to draw up: a fish



    II.to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear


    III.to bear away what has been raised, carry off

    Thats what the scapegoat did with the sins of Israel, which was the OT Church Acts 7:38

    This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
     
  7. savedbymercy

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    Again:

    Did you understand the points I made in the post ? Please articulate them back to me to see if you did, then we can discuss them !
     
  8. PreachTony

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    Van, I'll tell you like I told Yeshua1 and DHK...

    SBM does not want debate or discussion. He wants us to simply repeat what he says and agree with him. Nothing short of that will merit him answering your questions.
     
  9. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    pt

    Thats a lie. I have stated many times that I am open for both, when you prove to me you understood the Logic of the points made ! Now, how about you ? Do you understand the OP ? Prove it, then we can discuss and or debate the points made !
     
  10. PreachTony

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    The problem with this little explanation, SBM, is that whenever someone asks you questions that would help to clarify your OP, you accuse them of evasion and rabbit trails. You won't answer questions unless someone repeats back what you said. If I might remind you of an exchange between us just a couple days ago...consider your response to what I wrote...
     
  11. savedbymercy

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    Christ died for our sins according to scripture !2

    And so as the Great High Priest of the New Covenant, He representatively gave Himself for the sins of the New Covenant Israel, The Church Eph 5:25,2

    25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

    And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

    Eph 5:2 is referring to the Church in Vs 25, yet He gave Himself as an Sacrifice, an Offering, is language looking back to the OT Economy of the Church; Hence the Our Sins of 1 Cor 15:3 according to scripture is the Israel of God, a Chosen Elect People, which was Typified by the OC Israel, which in any case, this rule of scripture does forbid that Christ's Death was for all mankind in general, just as the Aaronic Priesthood on the Day of Atonement was not for all mankind in the general !
     
  12. savedbymercy

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    Ok, Evasion !
     
  13. Yeshua1

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    ALL of us here were once under the wrath of God though, as ALL of us were found to be in Adam by God, and ONLY when we received jesus as Lord did we pass from wrath to Grace!
     
  14. savedbymercy

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    You quoted that whole post, did you understand the points made ? Please articulate them back to me so we can discuss them, if you understood them !
     
  15. Van

    Van
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    I asked two questions. You have not answered either one. So why are you repeating your use of a logical fallacy, rather than engaging in actual biblical discussion? Because Calvinism has no answers to the questions!!
    1) Did you address when individuals are propitiated, when Christ died, or when individuals undergo the circumcision of Christ? Nope.

    2) Did you address why Christ became the propitiation for the whole world, if He only died for a subset of mankind? Nope ​
     
  16. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    van

    I asked you to do something and you did not do it ! You reap what you sow !
     
  17. Yeshua1

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    The election is individual in basis, mased upon the will and purposes. decrees of god unto salvation for his own elect

    Jesus death did NOT do that for all sinners, or else God would be into Universalism!
     
  18. Van

    Van
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    See a pattern folks, all Calvinism has to offer is change of subject, rather than the topic they seek to discuss my bad behavior. LOL
     
  19. Van

    Van
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    I am not allowed to discuss the lack of lucid thought expressed above. But the pattern of posting absurdity or ad homenims rather than address the topic continues unabated.
    1) Did you address when individuals are propitiated, when Christ died, or when individuals undergo the circumcision of Christ? Nope.

    2) Did you address why Christ became the propitiation for the whole world, if He only died for a subset of mankind? Nope ​
     
  20. savedbymercy

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    You have the evasion pattern!
     

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