He descended into Hell

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Liz Ward, Dec 9, 2004.

  1. Liz Ward

    Liz Ward
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2004
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    0
    Any thoughts on this phrase from the Apostles' creed?

    Liz
     
  2. grace56

    grace56
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Chirst went down to the relm of the dead. He opened heaven's gate for the just who had gone before him. In doing so he destoyed death, so at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, in heaven and on earth and uncer the earth.

    saved56
     
  3. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Did Jesus Go to ““hell”” after He died on the cross? Yes. Did He go to ““torments””? NO! And that is an emphatic NO!!! What did He tell the thief who asked to be ““remembered””? ““Today thou shalt be with me...””, where, in hell? NO! ““In paradise””. Jesus did not go to ““torments”” to finish atoning for our sins after He died on the cross. He did not suffer the pains of ““hell fire”” in our place for three days and three nights! If He did then what is the meaning of the words (rather word, it is one word in Greek, tetelestai) ““IT IS FINISHED!””. Did Jesus lie to the thief? Did Jesus lie when He said ““It is finished”” knowing that He still had to suffer in ““hell”” for three more days? This idea that Jesus went to hell to suffer for our sins is NOT in the Bible! The Bible teaches that Jesus went to the cross to suffer for our sins, not that He went to hell to suffer for our sins!

    So, what about Acts 2:27?

    In his sermon at Pentecost, recorded in Acts 2:14-36. Peter introduces the subject of the resurrection by referring to a prophecy by David.

    Psalm 16:8-10.
    8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    Though the statement is made in reference to the suffering that David was experiencing, it is only applicable to David in part. David did die and his body was still in the ground 1000 years later when Peter quoted the passage. The full meaning of verse ten can only be understood if it is applied to Jesus Christ. This is precisely what Peter does. He points out that David is dead and buried. Peter even goes so far as to remind them that David’’s tomb could still be visited at that time. In fact, it is still possible to visit the site. In this way he rules out the idea that the passage has as its main focal point the suffering and deliverance of David.

    In this passage, it remains to be determined which of the three places the Psalmist referred, the grave, torments, or paradise. There are two factors in making such a determination: 1) How is the statement in Psalm 16:10 interpreted by the New Testament writers?, and 2) What do other passages have to say about where Christ went during the three days between His death and Resurrection?

    Let us first examine Peter's interpretation of the passage. In verse 26 Peter refers to David's flesh resting in hope. Verse 27 says, "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." Concerning the first phrase, which does apply to David, R.C.H. Lenski notes:

    ““Jehovah, who has ever been at David's right to keep him from being shaken by doubt and fear, will never forsake him at the time of death. His hope is sure: "Because thou wilt not abandon my soul unto hades." When David comes to die Yahweh will not abandon his soul, or permit it to sink into hell, the place of the damned. . . . The abandonment here denied is not merely one which leaves a person in a terrible place after he has fallen there, but one which never even permits him to get into such a place.””

    Peter asserts that David is still dead and buried. While it is true that God did not abandon David's soul to torments, it is also true that he had been dead and buried for about 1000 years now. Since David has been dead for this time it is not possible to say that David's flesh did not see corruption. Notice carefully the words of verse 27, "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." It seems that David is expressing his hope of being in a place of comfort in the first phrase and uttering a prediction about the Messiah in the latter portion of the verse. In the application of Psalm 16:10 Peter states that both phrases relate to the Christ, verse 31, "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither did his flesh see corruption." It is wholly within the scope of the context to understand that David was referring to death and the grave. There is nothing within this passage which indicates that Christ was in the place of torments.

    Psalm 16:10 is also quoted and interpreted later by the Apostle Paul in his sermon in the synagogue at Antioch of Pisidia (Acts 13:35-37). Paul quotes the passage in verse 35 and then says that David " fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:" Thus, Paul also indicates that the passage cannot have primary reference to the psalmist. Paul goes on in verse 37 to apply the passage to Jesus, "but he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption." David used the word to refer to the grave, the place where the body returns to dust.

    In the two instances in which this passage is mentioned in the New Testament there is no indication that the psalmist had reference to torments. There are a few more passages which need to be considered in determining where Christ spent the hours between His death and resurrection. Christ, in his second statement from the cross announced to the repentant thief, "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). If Christ had gone to suffer the pains of eternal Hell during the interim period, He could not have made this statement. Another consideration concerning the suffering of Christ is what Christ himself said about the completion of His suffering while still on the cross.

    John 19:30 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

    A further consideration is that in the first and last sayings on the cross, Christ addressed God as "Father". In the fourth statement He cried out "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" As Christ became the sin bearer and the full weight of the sins of all mankind were placed upon Him, he literally became sin for us (2 Cor 5:21). In His position as sin bearer, Christ had no right to address God as Father; in fact, since God could not look upon iniquity, He had no choice but to abandon His Son to the full suffering of Calvary. After the bitter cup of God's wrath had been drained, after the awful debt had been paid, and after the atonement had been accomplished, fellowship was again restored between the Father and the Son. The fact that Christ was able to say, "Father into thy hands I commend my Spirit" (Luke 23:46) is ample evidence that the debt had already been paid in full.

    Yes, Jesus was laid in the grave. Yes, he went to ““Abraham’’s bosom”” or ““Paradise””. No, Jesus did not spend three days and nights in the torment of hell fire.
    _________________
    Always learning, but never able to understand it all.
     
  4. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    The phrase uses the word "hell" in the same translational manner that the KJV uses it in several verses. The word in Greek is "hades", which is the Greek word for "Sheol". Sheol is not Hell as we understand it (the eternal place you go to if you reject salvation). Sheol in the OT is the place where a dead person's soul went to rest. Presumably, Jesus went to Sheol to gather up the souls of the faithful dead and take them to Heaven (and, in doing so, effectively destroyed death as was understood in the OT). Christians today have no need for Sheol upon their death today.

    BTW, many congregations taht regularly use the Apostles' Creed today have switched to an updated translation of it, which renders the phrase "He decended to the dead".
     
  5. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, we also need to mention the Greek meanings of what "hell" actually was. What was Abraham's bossom, etc.

    There is more to this than a simple "hell" vs. a paradise in heaven.

    I am not a good one to explain all of this, I will leave this to the pastors.
     
  6. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    I believe the AV men(and others who did the same) shoulda been more clear in their translations of the words sheol, hades, tartaroo, and gehenna. Just calling them all "hell" is rather generic, and it could be that calling sheol(the grave) hell has helped perpetuate the RCC's false "purgatory" doctrine.
     
  7. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    2,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ephesians 4:8
    Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

    This is the verse I remember being taught concerning this "rearrangement" of the structure of the afterlife. Christ led the "captive" faithful in Sheol to heaven, so that now there is a heaven and a hell, in the common understanding of the words.
     
  8. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    The phrase uses the word "hell" in the same translational manner that the KJV uses it in several verses. The word in Greek is "hades", which is the Greek word for "Sheol". Sheol is not Hell as we understand it (the eternal place you go to if you reject salvation). Sheol in the OT is the place where a dead person's soul went to rest. Presumably, Jesus went to Sheol to gather up the souls of the faithful dead and take them to Heaven (and, in doing so, effectively destroyed death as was understood in the OT). Christians today have no need for Sheol upon their death today.

    BTW, many congregations taht regularly use the Apostles' Creed today have switched to an updated translation of it, which renders the phrase "He decended to the dead".
    </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, John, I posted my response before someone had a chance to explain. Your response popped up before mine. Thanks for the answer.
     
  9. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    You were taught correctly (imho) Debby. Jesus went with the regenerate thief to Paradise (part of sheol/hades which was the abode of the righteous), preached the Good News of the cross and the blood, then ascended to heaven with those saints.

    Unregenerate man still dies and goes to hades, a place of torment and no purgatory! In Revelation 20 death and hades will be cast into the lake of fire (what we think of as hell) forever.

    For me today? To be 'absent from the body' is NOT to go to Paradise or sheol, but to go to heaven to 'be present with my Lord.'
     
  10. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sorry, somehow a section got left out of my post:

    To properly understand this passage it is necessary to understand what was meant by the word "hell". It is always important to seek to understand scripture as much as possible from the point of view of the ones who are addressed. We must seek to understand from the perspective of Peter's Jewish audience. This is much more important than whatever connotations the term may have for believers in our day and age. Before we can determine what the passage means for us, we must determine what it meant to the original readers.

    In the Old Testament the Hebrew word for Hell is "Sheol". In the Old Testament this word is used 65 times and translated three different ways and can refer to three diferrent places. It is translated as: Grave (31 times), Hell (31 times), Pit (3 times). It can refer to:
    1 - the place where the physical body is laid after death.
    2 - the place where the souls of the saved go after death.
    3 - the place where the souls of the lost go after death.

    In the New Testament there are two Greek words translated as "hell". The word "hades" (adhs) is used 11 times, translated "hell" (10), "grave" (1). The word "gehenna" (geenna) is used 12 times and translated "hell" all 12 times. In Acts 2:31, the word "hades" is used. It is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word "sheol".

    During the time of Christ, the Old Testament distinctions regarding "sheol" were in effect. The bodies were placed in the graves, while the souls either went to the place of comfort (Abraham's Bosom), or the place described as a place of Torments (Luke 16:19-31). When Christ rose from the dead and ascended back to His Father on high we are told in Ephesians 4:8 that He "led captivity captive." This is often understood to mean that He took all of those in "Abraham's Bosom" to heaven with Him.
    Whenever the transition from “Paradise” to “with the Lord” in Heaven took place, it is certain that believers go to Heaven immediately upon death.

    II Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    Philippians 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

    Based on Biblical revelation there has been no change in the destiny of the lost. It may also be appropriate to mention that no one is in eternal Hell at this time, at least, not yet. The lost are in the place described by the Greek words "Hades" and "Gehenna", but the torment that is suffered in those places will be interrupted by the great white throne judgement. After this judgement, all of the lost will then be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where they will suffer eternal torment (Rev 20:10,14,15).
     
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    When Jesus Christ died His body went into the grave.
     
  12. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree. I think this is what was meant by the phrase that Jesus went to hell in the Apostles' Creed: He actually died and his body was placed in a grave. "Grave" was often translated as "hell." This was to emphasize Jesus' actual death before the resurrection, so there was no doubt he had a physical death.
     
  13. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, His body did go to the grave. That is the place where "corruption" takes place (Acts 2:31). That is the primary interpretation of Peter's words. His Spirit/Soul also went to sheol/hades, the place of comfort, not the place of torment.

    I do not believe that is what is meant by the ancient Apostles Creed. Not able to comment on the new revision of the AC.
     
  14. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Jesus' physical body was entombed. Macia is right that sometimes "sheol" can be physical grave as well as the spirit's abiding place.

    But Jesus did not deceive the regenerated thief and His spirit went "Paradise". He didn't stay in the grave.

    BTW, the bodily resurrection is only needed to show the triumph of Christ's spirit. The work was done on the cross; Christ's spirit was never entombed with the corpse. It was always alive.
     
  15. Matt Black

    Matt Black
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,141
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think we have to be careful about getting ourselves tied up in knots over this one, otherwise we can easily fall into the error of 'Jesus Died Spiritually' of the Word of Faith movement; the Plymouth Brethren under J N Darby also strayed close to the edge on this one

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  16. MTA

    MTA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2004
    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with rjprince on this one. I find nothing to support that Christ had to do anything to deliver pre-Calvary saints from a staging area before they could be ushered into the place where all saints since that time go.

    Although the actual act of reconciliation was accomplished in our time, the redemptive promise was made before the foundation of the world was laid. The remedy for future transgressions was just as effective and just as complete as if it had already taken place.
     
  17. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    MTA

    Not sure I would say that it was just as effective as if it had already taken place.

    The promise might have been made in Genesis 3:15 but the animal sacrifices still provided a covering for the sins until the death of the Perfect Lamb of God, once for all, could take them away. The blood of bulls and goats could never take sin away.

    Jesus had to die, and until He died there was no sufficient basis for OT saints to enter heaven. That is why we have Lazarus in Abraham's bosom, not in glory. Not sure if you were going that far with it or not, but I would stop short of saying, "just as effective." There is no indication that OT saints went into God's presence at death to the best of my knowledge. Post-cross, we do.
     
  18. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am not sure we can be sure the OT saints were not in heaven before Jesus, since they were saved by grace through faith just as people are after Christ came (though they believed in God as they did not know specifically about Jesus, his death on the cross, etc). After all, the bible says that Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    I've heard that the phrase "in Abraham's bosom" meant being with God. This phrase was a sort of euphemism since God was not directly referred to by the Jews. If this is true, then Jesus was saying that Lazarus was with God.

    The idea of a ""waiting place" where the OT saints went and stayed until Jesus died and rose is not universally accepted as correct in the church. Though there are a few (unclear) verses that are used to support it, many do not find them supportive of this belief, or at least it is not that clear. Also, there are many different views of most of these verses.

    It would be interesting to hear views for and against this, using supporting Scripture.
     
  19. lets_reason_toghether

    lets_reason_toghether
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    do you have thoughts about the three hours of darkness spoken of in Matt, Mark and Luke?

    Just curious?
     
  20. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    My view is that God the Father "hid his face" as God the Son took the full weight of our sin on Himself (2Cor 5:21). God is of purer eyes than to behold evil (Hab 1:13).

    This is a VIEW or opinion, since Scripture never specifically states the reason for the darkness. We do know that the darkness was during the time that Jesus was bearing our sins though. As mentioned earlier, before Jesus "dismissed His spirit" (the meaning of aphiami, aw-fee-ay-mee - Matt 27:50) He was back in fellowship with the Father and the payment had been finished (John 19:30).
     

Share This Page

Loading...