Headcoverings... just kidding, this is for cessationalists

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Daniel David, Feb 17, 2004.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Before I rant, I want to say that I am a cessationalist, that is, I believe the sign gifts are no longer available for the church.

    I have noticed (along with several of my friends - yes I actually do have some), that alot of people claim to be cessationalists yet practice alot of the charismaniac tendencies.

    For example:

    We believe that God is done with revelation. He revealed himself to us perfectly and completely through his word (the NASB of course).

    In spite of that, many of these same people (usually KJVO) claim that God has spoken to them apart from his word.

    They say that God has led them to do something. What do they base this on?

    Or maybe they say they have a peace about something.

    Perhaps some of you know what I am talking about and can help me understand how you believe revelation has ended yet you have a new word from the Lord.
     
  2. donnA

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    LOL
     
  3. justdan

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    Daniel,
    I too believe the sign gifts are not for today, and that the canon of the Bible is done. I also believe That the Holy Spirit leads and guides Christians ( when we follow ).
     
  4. donnA

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    I'm not sure I have firmly made up my mind either way.
     
  5. Pastor Larry

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    I think God leads through circumstances and desires. I am a cessationist and I have a visceral reaction against "I just felt peace" argument. But at the same time, I am cautious to totally discount inner calm, so long as it is not considered determinative or infallible. Ultimately, apart from obedience to the explicit statements of Scripture, we do not have an infallible guide to decision making. Our feelings/thoughts/desires are always affected by sin. In this regard, I am a subscriber to the Friessen approach. I came to that opinion before I read his book and found that he was saying many things I already believed. I came from a very "peace oriented" life so it was quite a journey for me, but man was it refreshing and relieving ...
     
  6. Chet

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    Daniel David these are very good questions you pose. I have some fairly strong feelings about them myself. I am a firm cessationist and feel that these subject matter’s are related.

    I believe God’s will for our life is revealed to us in Scripture. The phrases “God told me…” or “God called me…” is to say God is speaking to them extra-biblically. We have the complete, infallible, reliable, revelation for God’s will in our lives. The best thing for all of us is to research what it teaches and we would be amazed at how much our prayers for His will in our lives are already answered.
     
  7. rbrent

    rbrent
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    I agree that the “sign gifts” are not operating now as they did in the times of the apostles.
    However, I wouldn’t put God in a box and say He can’t or won’t do something extraordinary today.

    In Acts 16:10, God gave Paul a vision to let him know that he should go into Macedonia.
    Paul, Luke and their companions, based on the vision, had warrant for “assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.”

    Notice that Paul himself comments on this call to Macedonia in II Cor 7:5 -
    “For, when we were come into Macedonia, our flesh had no rest, but we were troubled on every side; without were fightings, within were fears.”

    Seems to me a man can be in the perfect will of God and experience a storm of trouble, fightings and fears.

    I think there is a huge difference between the revelation of God as given in the scriptures and God’s Holy Spirit leading us one way or another.
    God leading you to do something - bearing witness in your spirit - is not new revelation.
    It is leading or guiding.

    After all, Jesus said “When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth...” John 16:13
     
  8. Daniel David

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    rbrent, that last verse you gave was about the disciples being able to guide the church (especially through the writing of the Scriptures) after Christ ascended into heaven.

    In another thread, one liberal mentioned that God calls women to teach men. Where is the evidence of such a statement? It is confined to one's own view that has already been set.

    This works both ways though. I know this kind of stuff isn't limited to liberals. Many so-called IFBs will talk about this mystical leading that isn't based on anything but their own wants.

    I just don't like hearing people talk about their little experiences as though God told him/her to do it.

    I have said before and will say again, God is blamed for more bad theology than any other being.
     
  9. Karen

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    So are you really just saying that Deism is correct, that God just set general principles into effect, and that He does not really care what we individually do?
    So PL and DD, you are pastors completely apart from any "guidance" from God to be so? You "wanted" to, and it wasn't illegal, immoral, or fattening, so that was enough? :D

    I find it interesting that, often, the most Calvinistic with regards to salvation are the most non-Calvinistic with regards to all other issues.

    Karen
     
  10. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    That is not at all what I am saying. I will address it later.
     
  11. Pastor Larry

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    No, I wouldn't put it that way at all. I think the issue is this: How can we know what God wants from us or wants us to do? If revelation has ended, then we have no infallible guide. God works in us to will and to do his good pleasure. When my will and desires are conformed to his word, and when the circumstances work out, then I am free to act in accord with my conscience. But I must understand that my conscience/feelings/peace/whatever has not authoritative value. It is not infallible.

    I would disagree ... I think that what I have said is very calvinistic. Remember, Calvinism does not suggest that God forces man to do anything. God works in man to will and to do his good pleasure.

    Have you read Friessen's Decision Making and the Will of God[/b]?
     
  12. Dr. Bob

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    I just "felt led" to respond.

    Of course, that was an inner leading of my sick ego for a cheap laugh.

    Seriously, now. It is easy to BLAME GOD for our own bad choices, don't you think? So if I "feel" He has led me to do something, and then that something falls flat, it is GOD'S FAULT.

    At the same time, there IS subjective truth as well as objective truth in the matter. A close walk with God WILL keep my mind "renewed" and my being "transformed" so that His will is discernable in my spirit.
     
  13. Butterflies4mami

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    Well, God didn't write in His word what exactly has in store for us (individually) in our lifetime, such as what are of service, what area of the world, etc. So, we as humans having the ability to make decisions are left on our own to figure out what Christ might have in store for us.
    Of course, we cannot "be led" outside of the Bible to do anything, that is our first guidline. Secondly, to keep our heart in "tune" with Christ, or to be like-minded, if you will, we must: pray, read and study, strive each day to be like Christ. I think then that we would be able to make easier decisions on lifes little/ and big questions.
    I have seen folks obsessed trying to know "where they are being led". In Bible college I saw men and women alike stressing, especially when they were almost finished at school, to find that calling on thier life. Some were pressured into ministries they were not fit for. Sometimes I would think,MAN! Just preach if that is what you are called to do, there are people dying lost everyday & everywhere! God will reveal Himself with the specifics usually when we are following Him blinded. (or through faith) I follow the guidlines of If you see a need, fill it! Let God be God and you follow.
    Sorry, I just feel that sometimes we try to make God and His work out to be more complicated than He intends us to!

    In Christ,
    Peggy
     
  14. vaspers

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    I've never understood the "cessationist" point of view, but I also view with distaste and dismay alot of charismatic nonsense, especially clearly unbiblical stuff like slaying in the spirit, holy laughter, vomiting up the devil, staged healings, binding spirits, etc. But as far as direct revelation from God on specific actions, I do believe in that, but I don't think we should say "I feel led" or "the Holy Spirit told me what brand of sugar to buy" or anything like that. I lay hands on people and minister healing, my Baptist pastor anoints with oil as in James, I think we can cast out demons if the opportunity arises. No problem. I see no verse or principle that says all powers of the Holy Spirit cease when the Bible is complete. That's a strange idea, but not essential to saving faith, so think what you want.
     
  15. Daniel David

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    vaspers, cessationalism has to do with the sign gifts, not the power of the Spirit. It refers to specific gifts. Obviously the power of God cannot be thwarted.

    What are you basing your 'I believe' statements on? I am not arguing, but I would really like to know.

    God has written so much about his will to us if we would only examine what the Scripture actually says. If we are striving to be obedient to that, you can do whatever you want. The reason is because your 'wants' will be in line with the Scriptural truth already revealed.

    We make our plans, but the Lord directs our steps.
     
  16. vaspers

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    DanielDavid: I agree our wants will be in line with The Word, Jesus said ask whatever you want, you got it. Jesus made very bold statements about believe = receive. The only time He was unable to do mighty works was when unbelief reigned. John 14:12 says we can do even greater works, we work with Christ to do them. Not lesser works. Greatest is leading others to salvation. Jesus said He did nothing outside Father's will. Some specific details in my life are not specifically stated in the Bible, but the Holy Spirit is free and able to tell me specific things so I avoid danger or sin or whatever. This works all the time and is a real blessing, exactly like you said: the Lord directs our steps. Amen. Thanks for your response. Hope I've clarified a little.
     
  17. Karen

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    To Pastor Larry,
    No, Friessen's book is on my to-do list.

    To the body of the thread,
    Aren't we really PARTLY having a semantic difference? If God leads through circumstances and desires, do not those circumstances and desires in SOME way, at least partly, come from Him? And if so, then He is leading individually.
    No, discerning it is not foolproof.

    A practical example. We are in the throes of college applications. My child has been accepted at several universities. Offered scholarships at several, even better. [​IMG]
    In SOME manner, God has a "plan" here.
    And no, we don't have to worry about missing it.
    But my son's choices here will have a ripple effect on other choices the rest of his life.
    I am sure God will lead us individually, whether my son is to be an engineer in OK or an accountant in Timbuktu.
    Trying to discern God's leading doesn't have to imply some sort of extra-biblical vision or ignoring the mandates of Scripture.

    Karen
     
  18. Butterflies4mami

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    Well said Karen!!!

    In Christ,
    Peggy
     
  19. vaspers

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    Personal Holy Spirit guidance, I know some abuse this concept, but it is real, its not "extra-Biblical" it is a lot how you define and experience it. I feel great knowing that everything that happens to me works together for good if I really love God. The key=humble prayer, reading scripture, obedience. It's really simple. We just have different ways to describe it. Pray, think it through, ask God for wisdom, trust Him to guide, make your decision, ask God to shut bad doors and open good ones. Simple really. Right?
     
  20. ChurchBoy

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    Does the cessationalist view imply that God CANNOT work supernaturally in a person's life today?
     

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