Headship in the world

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by The Carpinator, Jul 4, 2005.

  1. The Carpinator

    The Carpinator
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    Do you believe Headship is to followed in the world or the church/home only? For example...should women be Presidents/Generals/Police Officers/Judges?
     
  2. Magnetic Poles

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    If humanity does not value the contributions of over half of its members, then we are all the poorer for it.
     
  3. Marcia

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    What about the order God set up that is taught in 1 Cor 11.3? It seems to be a universal principle.

    I know the letter is to Christians, but it doesn't make sense that God would say this as being true for Christians and not for anyone else.

    There seems to be an order that God set up. While the Bible makes it clear that men and women are equally valuable as human beings, and that woman have much to contribute (hey, I'm a woman!), I wonder about how this is supposed to work out in the world.

    I am not against women having jobs, btw, but I do wonder about what kind of jobs they should or should not have. In the kind of world we live in, it may seem ridiculous to even think this way, but the world is fallen and corrupt and we have gotten used to it.
     
  4. The Carpinator

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    I know the letter is to Christians, but it doesn't make sense that God would say this as being true for Christians and not for anyone else.

    There seems to be an order that God set up. While the Bible makes it clear that men and women are equally valuable as human beings, and that woman have much to contribute (hey, I'm a woman!), I wonder about how this is supposed to work out in the world.

    I am not against women having jobs, btw, but I do wonder about what kind of jobs they should or should not have. In the kind of world we live in, it may seem ridiculous to even think this way, but the world is fallen and corrupt and we have gotten used to it.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I believe a wife should, if all possible, stay at home. I know that is not PC...even in church circles...but "dats da way it is". [​IMG] I think that the church needs to stand up and realize that revival starts at home and that can't be done when moms at work all day. When dad gets home he has to help with meals/cleaning/homework...and after all that..who feels like doing a bible study? If moms at home..when dad gets there the house is clean, dinners cooking, homeschoolers don't have home work and dad can be the spiritual leader he is called to be. Its pretty simple really. :cool:
     
  5. Ben W

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    One thing that occurs to me is that men and women were originally created equal, yet Adam was placed in the headship role as a result of sin.

    I think that women can do a variety of roles, and a police officer is a fine role, being that they are under the authority of others anyway, so it is no conflict.

    Yet the world is unlikely anytime soon to value the opinion of the churches on this matter! ;)
     
  6. Victory in Jesus

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    Ben Saturday I would have disagreed with you about man and woman being made equal. But I just discovered Sunday morning during my devotions that-sure enough!-because they sinned, man was to work hard for his food and was to be head of woman. It was after the fall.

    I did know woman was to have pain during childbirth, but I pondered that and remembered my dog having puppies twice. Not once did she wimper. Animals don't have pain when they have babies.

    I think what God took away from us..what we could have had...was unbridled total dependance on God for everything we would ever need. But after the fall:

    The snake had to crawl on his belly

    The woman had to feel pain during childbirth (what should be the most exciting time in her life). PLUS she has had to pick clothes up after the man, wash the clothes, fold the cloths, put away the clothes, hang up the clothes, iron the clothes, and make the clothes. CLOTHING is truely woman's curse!

    The man had to work hard to eat. Food didn't just grow, he now had to dig hard and plant the seed, water it, watch over it, reap it...all these things God would have done for him.

    It's almost like my daughter at two when she insisted on putting on her own clothes when I was there to do it for her. She stubbornly resisted my help and finally I took my hands off her and said, "OK, if you want to get dressed all by yourself, get dressed! I'm not going to help you at all. Come down for breakfast when you're done!" She looked at me like I was kidding, and cried when I closed the door. Things got quiet, I heard grunting, crying, yelling, and finally she opened the door with her clothes hanging half-off, inside out and on the wrong parts of the body. LOL! I wish I had a camera.


    *******************

    I have a problem with certain people being hired for certain roles. If they have the physical skill to carry out the task every other person is fit to do, that's fine with me. But, our PC in America lowers the standards so that women can get into the police dept (and fire dept, I heard from my B-I-L, who seems to be a bigot, so not sure about that).

    I may have mentioned this before in here. Police officers have a certain order to gain control of a suspect. First they use verbal warning (and verbal warning before any following use of weapon unless their lives are in danger), then manual force (they don't teach judo and karate in the academy), then pepper spray, then blunt force (asp...or "night stick"), and if all those do not work, they reach for their gun. If the situation is very serious, however...if the suspect is approaching them with a threat to kill...a gun, for instance...or any indication the other three methods would not work and is threatening the officer's life...he uses the last resort, his gun. Officers are not trained to go for the leg to stop them like television depicts. They are trained to hit the largest mass, from their belt to their collarbone. They are trained NOT to hesitate, their decisions have to be quick.

    Consider this scenerio: A female police officer is 5'4" (average height for a woman) and 120 lbs (average weight). The suspect is 6' (average height) and 220 lbs (average weight). If he is rushing her and she is alone (not all officers pair up like on tv...especially if the manpower is down and the city is large...Every city has its own set of policies), her only alternative is to grab her gun and shoot. Most male officers can take this man by physical force and use his asp if he has to, but a female of this stature would have to use her gun as her first option. Depending on her perception of threat, this 6' man could easily die at the hands of this female officer when a male officer would have just roughed him up.

    Keep in mind, many people they deal without there are high or drunk, so they aren't thinking clearly. They may not realize they are being a threat.

    However, even if that were not the turnout of the scenerio, the man could overpower her and she could be hurt or killed, whereas a male officer (of normal stature) would be able to handle himself.

    I do believe that since there are so many women suspects out there today, there is a place for women on the police force. They should be called to the scene when a female needs to be frisked and processed. But, male officers should handle the male suspects (including the frisking)...and in many situations, they don't have the choice or time to make that distinction.

    This is, of course, my biased opinion. But I feel strongly that we should not lower the standards for women so they can make the cut into a dangerous profession. If they have the strength and ability, go for it. But, God made us differently.
     
  7. I Am Blessed 24

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    I beg to differ with you. Revivals CAN and DO start in homes with both moms and dads working outside the home.

    I used to work outside the home and never ONCE did my husband come home and help with meals/cleaning/homework!

    I am blessed now to be able to stay at home, but I work just as hard at home as my husband does at work...however, he gets to sit down, relax, and enjoy the rest of the evening. NOT SO for the moms! They still have to do the supper dishes, give the kids baths, and usually 'wait' on the husband.

    Whether a woman works outside the home or not, she has several full-time jobs.

    As far as having Bible study at night. Where in the Bible does it say you must 'feel' like it in order to have one?

    Our lives are not to be based on feelings, but on Biblical principles....
     
  8. donnA

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    I remember tring to say this once and got all kinds of opposition. Our feelings are easily lead, even by satan, only biblical principles can be counted on for truth, never feelings.
     
  9. The Carpinator

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    If mom has to work...thats understandable. But if thats the case...Dad needs to help share the workload around the house too. If mom is a stay at home mom....then dad is free when he gets home to be the spiritual leader he needs to be instead of having to help mom. Men who make their wives work and then expect them to do everything around the house too after work while they sit on their butts are worthless IMO. Most moms don't "need" to work anyway. They work so they can have the big house, fancy car, nice clothes and vacations my family chooses to do without for the sake of a happy home. Get with it DADS!

    I never meant it like I had to "feel" like it. It just makes it easier to prepare and enjoy my role as spiritual leader when mom has the housework, dinner and kids taken care of allready.

    [ July 05, 2005, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: The Carpinator ]
     
  10. I Am Blessed 24

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    Just to keep things clear. In the above post, the first paragraph in quotes is not mine.

    Please be careful how you quote things so as not to attribute things to another poster that they did not say.

    Thanks,
    ┬žue
     
  11. The Carpinator

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    I'm sorry Blessed...I noticed that and changed it before I even seen your last post. Really sorry.
     
  12. I Am Blessed 24

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    Thank you. I may have come across a little strong and I apologize for that. It's just that I've been on both sides of the fence and no matter which side you're on, the mom doesn't usually stop working until it's time to go to bed...

    I have raised four children, and have 16 grandchildren, and am now raising one of my grandsons, whom I home school.

    We do a paper route together and, during the school months, I am a school crossing guard 2x a day. I still consider myself a stay-at-home 'Grandma'.

    My day stops when my grandson is in bed for the night. [​IMG]
     
  13. The Carpinator

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    My wife and I have been on both sides too and its hard either way. I just think that one way is better than the other.

    I admire you for the hard work you and all moms do. [​IMG]
     
  14. Karen

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    Dear Carpinator,
    I'm glad that's the way it's working out for you.
    But I will point out that I stayed home with the kids, and I RARELY managed to have that kind of orderly environment you seem to have.
    If it wasn't holding a feverish kid with ear infections, it was breastfeeding, chickenpox, helping at school, getting kids to basketball practice when they were older. Just a million different things I haven't listed.
    Few women I have ever met, "stay at home" or not have it all done by 5:00. More like 11:00 the main things are hopefully done.

    Karen
     
  15. dianetavegia

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    I posted the other day that my husband vacuums our two flights of stairs because I once slipped trying to carry the Electrolux and vac at the same time and hubby also scrubs the shower. If we get up at the same time, we make the bed together. If I have an empty bowl or glass in our t.v. room and he's going for a snack, he picks it up and takes it as he goes. You would have thought I'd said I made him scrub floors wearing a frilly apron. Anyman too good to pick his underwear up off the floor and throw it in the laundry is not much of a man in my opinion!

    Jim read the replies and got REALLY angry for me!

    Marriage is a team effort. Karen has pointed out many things that can go wrong where a mom needs help. A badly cut hand needs help washing dishes. A woman sick with a disease or even doing a special job for the church or a sick relative can use a helping hand around her home. Housework and parenthood is a full time, 24 hour a day job and marriage, if it's going to last, is each person giving 100%! None of this 50/50 garbage.

    Now, Hubby needs my help tonight so y'all just feel free to jump all over me. [​IMG]
     
  16. Victory in Jesus

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    Y'all left me speechless. I have nothing left to add. [​IMG]
     
  17. Victory in Jesus

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    But, since I did put you in a position of clicking on page 2 (didn't expect that...I'm sorry) I will say that the decision to whether Mom should work at home (paid or unpaid) or at an outside job is only a decision the family can make based on financial needs, social needs (sometimes Mom just HAS to work outside to maintain her skills or just to get fresh air), and the needs of the child(ren).

    Some kids want nothing more than to go to day care or the sitters to be with other children. Others need the security of being with Mom.

    There are more reasons than just money to work outside the home. Personally, the Lord has given me the blessing of staying at home and homeschooling my children. I've had many mothers tell me, "I could never homeschool my kids like you do" and I'm thinking, "I could never spend all day at work, come home and then cook dinner, clean, etc".

    Sometimes the grass is more difficult to mow on the other side of the fence.
     
  18. Thankful

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    This seems to be the statement of anyone who is against women working outside the home. If this statement COULD be verified, then I think it would be found to be untrue. I would venture to guess that most "moms" would prefer to stay home.
    I really dislike seeing "moms" categorized as working to have big expense houses, cars, vacations, etc. Just my opinion.


    This seems to be a wonderful dream, but in reality, it just doesn't work that way.

    Now back to the original subject.

    Based on my opinion, my answer would be "For church and home only" because I believe that a woman should have the opportunity to be anything and hold any position for which she is qualified.

    The largest Air Force Base in the World and the largest employer in Oklahoma is headed by a woman who is a Two-Star General. Granted she answers to people in authority who may be men.

    I would not want to even think about what would happen to our Country if all the women stayed at home.
     
  19. Marcia

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    What happened to this thread? It's become a debate on whether women should work or not, which was not the topic.

    I'd like to comment on this:
    This is just not true. Adam abdicated his God-given headship when he stood by while Eve was deceived and gave in to the temptation. Then he participated in it as well. One of the curses on woman was that her desire would be to rule over her husband -- that was a curse. The natural headship given to Adam was perverted in the Fall.

    You all are ignoring 1 Cor 11.3 and 1 Tim. 2.13. No one is addressing those verses.
     
  20. Karen

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    Hello Marcia,
    I suppose I helped derail. But not really. It is all tied together.
    I tend to believe that I Cor 11:3 and I Tim 2:13 are talking about church and about husband/wife relationships. Not about all women and all men.

    Yet it has often been traditionally interpreted that that no woman should have any authority over any man. This brings up work, naturally.
    Thus, until the late 1800's, women could not enter most professions and could attend few colleges. And women could not have authority over men and vote in this country till 1920.

    I will say that we aren't necessarily consistent or able to articulate our views clearly. Several weeks ago on a similar thread, I asked what God intended to teach us by these guidelines, that He does not intend in the secular world. No one really explained.

    Karen
     

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