Hear That Long Snake Moan

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Aaron, Jun 30, 2002.

  1. Aaron

    Aaron
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    This is a concise, authoritative essay on the history of Rock'n'Roll and its effect on American culture. Required reading in many university music history courses, it first appeared in the L. A. Weekly, and is included in an anthology of Ventura's essays, Shadow Dancing in the USA (St. Martins Press, 1985).

    Ventura asserts that rock music in all its forms is incompatible with Christian doctrine, and that it was a necessary development to heal the "mind-body split," a wound inflicted upon American culture by the narrow, puritanical teachings of Protestant Christianity.

    It reappeared in two parts in the Spring and Summer issues of Whole Earth Review (1987) with the following preface: With unexpected, compelling evidence, Michael Ventura asserts that rock music, TV evangelism theatrics, Baptist pentecostalism, jazz, and much else of our pop culture has its parenthood in voodoo.

    Click to read Hear That Long Snake Moan
     
  2. Odemus

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    Just as I expected, that report is sheer and utter trash, it is a fetid stinking stool of unscriptural, self righteous, disconnected, subjective opinion.That report isn't worth the bandwidth it takes up.

    Would anyone here dare to tell me why fornication is wrong without scripture?

    How about murder?

    Jealousy?

    Slander?

    Why would anyone who dares call himself a Christian go on for nine excruciating pages to present a moral argument without one single solitary verse from the Bible?

    You should be ashamed of yourself.To presume that God fearing Christians who worship and praise their Lord can't tell the difference between music that honors God and music that doesn't.

    Keith Green praises God, and I love his music, there isn't a single sinful thing about it (I use him as my main example because it is his music I love the most).If you listen to it and sense something sinful the problem is with you plain and simple end of discussion!

    The word of God is the only standard that I live by, not this tea leaf, palm reading theology you wish to employ.

    If you want to make a moral argument then use the Bible, apart from that you are making your own religion.
     
  3. Mike McK

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    I agree, Odemus.

    Believe it or not, this isn't the dumbest thing Aaron has posted. Check out the rantings of Kim Smith (or whatever her name is) sometime. It's a hoot.

    He's also linked to av1611, which is pretty funny, too (I'm pretty sure av1611 is put out by the same folks responsible for Landover Baptist).

    One of the things I found interesting about it was that Joe Ely is an R&B artist. That was quite a revelation.

    Mike

    [ June 30, 2002, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]
     
  4. Odemus

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    The problem starts when you presume something without Scriptural support.

    From what I gather this particular tyranical philosophy stems from plain old intolerance.One who asserts these obviously unscriptural beliefs looks at a group of kids thrusting their fists in the air at a Judas Priest concert and says "all music resembling that music in any way is consumed by a spirit of rebellion".Or one who sees teens bumping and grinding on the dance floor at a techno hall will say "all music that sounds anything like this is consumed by a spirit of carnal lust".

    What bothers me is not so much that people can feel this way, but that they woud dare to push this philosophy on those who know better in the name of Christianity.
     
  5. Aaron

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    Where in the Bible will I find the history of rock music?

    If someone came to me and said, "Jake is cheating on his wife," and I said, "Show me in the Bible where it says that Jake is cheating on his wife or I won't believe it," then I would be responding just as you do.

    Here is some evidence of the root and fruit of rock music. Judge the fruit of the root according to the Scriptures.

    But it is obvious that Jake didn't read it, or he would know that Ventura subscribes to the basic premises of African and Haitian Voo-doo, and comes straight out saying that rock music is great stuff.

    [ June 30, 2002, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  6. Ps104_33

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    A tremendous testimony to the deceitfulness of the Angel of Light.
     
  7. Odemus

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    If a brother came to you and accused me of cheating on my wife you wouldn't engage him in a debate about whether or not adultery is wrong.Why?The Bible is clear on the subject.

    If someone tells you abortion is fine do you say "Well I disagree but since no one ever had an abortion in the Bible we must look at the root of abortion and where it came from and the motives of the people who first performed/received one and write a 20 page document without a scriptural reference to set you straight."

    No, of course not. The Bible is crystal clear about the sanctity of life and we can take people to those passages which display that truth.Just because abortion isn't mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean that we can't tackle the issue from a Biblical perspective.

    So, on to your unscriptural assertion that rock & roll is sinful because those who pioneered the form were sinful.If this is true we should be able to conclude some things about this statement.

    1.Certain types of music can be inherently sinful regardless of who is playing them.

    2.Any new style of music pioneered by a sinful person will always be sinful regardless of who plays it.

    When we are discussing the nature of sin you better well keep your silly history lessons to yourself and stick to Scripture.

    Go ahead Aaron, prove those two statements from scripture.
     
  8. GrannyGumbo

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  9. Odemus

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    mispost

    [ June 30, 2002, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Odemus ]
     
  10. Odemus

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    Oh boy I'm still laughing...that one entitled "Music and the Coming Beast" is about the most hilarious thing I have ever read.That stuff right there is a perfect illustration of what happens when we don't stick to Scripture.

    [ June 30, 2002, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Odemus ]
     
  11. Aaron

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    That's not my assertion. When will you learn to read?
     
  12. Mike McK

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    That's not my assertion. When will you learn to read?</font>[/QUOTE]I disagree, Aaron.

    That's been a common theme of yours.

    It was also the point of the booklet you provided the link to (which, by the way, I find very hard hard to believe that any serious college or university would use. Bob Jones or Hamburger U., maybe) and endorsed.

    If you don't believe that, then why did you link us to it?
     
  13. Odemus

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    Oh, I read you just fine, and that is what you say.

    When will you learn that moral assertions must be based on scripture?
     
  14. Aaron

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    My common theme is that rock music is sin because it is sensual in and of itself. It's fruits demonstrate that and it's history demonstrates it (not to mention the general character and spirituality of those among who it is widely used).

    That's what I say over and over and over.

    And you act as if Terry Watkins or Kimberly Smith are the only links I provide. And I believe I answered you before on this. My site is not to convince you that rock music is evil, it is to provide evidence and information for those who think as I do. We are not naive enough to think that we have to subscribe to every tenet that Watkins does to glean good and useful information from his posts.

    But this is typical of you and your kind to merely dismiss evidence because you find some of the ideas of the researchers disagreeable. You don't offer any evidence to counter the facts they present or their interpretations thereof. You just reject it and intimate that I have somehow not met your arbitrary and ever-changing burden of proof.

    But I am not trying to convince you. I am merely countering your arguments so those whose spirits are grieved with worldly and sensual forms of worship in the church can have some answers.

    [ June 30, 2002, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  15. Odemus

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    In order to provide evidence of said innate sensuality you must refer to the lives of the unsaved who perform or listen to it.In order to establish that rock is inherently immoral in an absolute sense you must historically show that those who pioneered the form were all immoral.Or is that not the point of your silly history lesson?You can dodge and dodge and doge all you like but the fact is without Scripture the logic of your argument always reveals itself as nothing more than Pharisaical law.

    Keep dodging.
     
  16. Odemus

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    None of them establish in any way shape or form that music can be inherently evil.Neither do you.

    Hello? Since when is Scripture changing or arbitrary? Hello? Hello? Hello? I'm having a hard time believing you could possibly be that daft.
     
  17. Aaron

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    Sez who?

    I need do no such thing. I merely have to look into the effects of said music to provide evidence of said innate sensuality. I can provide evidence that music is not neutral, that the emotional responses are universal and independent of cognition, and the responses to rock music are sensual in nature.

    The Scriptures are repleat with condemnations of sensuality.

    [ June 30, 2002, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  18. Odemus

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    What's with the history lesson then if not to establish some point or other?
    Nowhere in the Bible is music equated with sensuality.It is entirely inferred on your part.

    Doh! your argument falls flat once again.

    Admit it already, you have not one shred of Scriptural support. You are an arrogant and prideful man Aaron, You judge the hearts and minds of others without evidence, you make claims about music which are nothing more than Pharisaical, and you are cornered, and there is no worming your way out of it.You have no scriptural support whatsoever in any capacity.Admit it! nothing you say about this supposed inherent sensuality in music is based on Scripture!Nothing!Why do I do I continue to argue with a brick wall?

    I keep thinking somehow you will give way to reason but it just doesn't happen!What on earth has clouded your judgement so terribly?

    How do I know that drums and guitars don't produce anything sinful?Because I've heard them!You see, the sound waves leave the instruments, travel though the air, reach my auditory canal, hit the various workings of my inner ear, and the soundwaves are converted into sound.My brain analyzes the sound and it is revealed as music.The music elicits a positive or negative response.If it's positive, I like it, if it's negative, I don't.At no point in this entire sequence of events is my heart ever ever ever ever ever ever enticed to sin.Do you understand this?If not read again.If that doesn't work, repeat.If that doesn't work, you are helpless.

    Remember Aaron, you can't go anywhere with a moral assertion and leave the word of God behind.

    [ June 30, 2002, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: Odemus ]
     
  19. Aaron

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    If you would actually read the "little history lesson" you would see that it is, just as I described in my first post, a description of rock's effects not only on individuals, but the effect it has had on American society.

    Cornered? :confused: Hardly :rolleyes:

    Nowhere in the Bible is music equated with sensuality. It is entirely inferred on your part.

    First of all, I never said music is sensual. I said there is sensual music. For if music were neutral, there would have been no reason for the Apostle to specify "spiritual" songs, Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16.

    And as Paul was not given to redundance, it is foolish to suggest there is no difference between his the classifications of Psalms, Hymns, and spiritual songs.

    Psalms are a particular style, indended to be accompanied on the psaltery (hence the name.) An Hymn is a particular style, generally without accompaniment, and spiritual is a particular style as opposed to sensual.

    And don't suppose that words alone are the criteria, for it is presupposed that teaching and admonishing could not be done with frivolities or evil speaking. Spiritual is describing the style of music. He didn't want them borrowing the styles commonly employed by profane men.

    And there is no need for the Apostle to preface his admonition with a music theory lesson, for there was no question until the late 1970's that a particular style of music is sensual in character, and a particular style is spiritual.

    One last thing, neither Eph. 5:19 nor Col. 3:16 are in the context of worship.

    And you're right, I don't have one shred of Scriptural support. I have a stack of it. You just don't know what music is, therefore you can't see where the Scriptures apply, and you refuse to receive instruction from those who do.

    God is not required to reveal everything in a straighforward manner, and He didn't, Prov. 25:2. These things can be searched out, and those of us with any modicum of maturity or might in the Scriptures are expected to make inferences, Heb. 5:13,14.

    Now, can someone arrive at a wrong conclusion? Sure, but it is not a spiritual or mature man who rejects an argument just because he doesn't see it floating on top of the milk.

    Doh! Bumped again! ;)

    [ July 01, 2002, 01:54 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  20. Odemus

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    I did read it, it was as I said, a fetid stinking stool.It is the message of the music which is such a detriment to society nothing else, time to wake up.

    Wiggle wiggle squirm squirm

    Last definiton I checked a song required singing which required words.I'm sure it might make sense to you to hum something spiritual to someone but to the rest of rational man, it doesn't-and you accuse me of leaps of logic.Will you stop at nothing to preserve your self righteousness?
    How about instead of a difference I find a commonality, like, say, oh I dunno...WORDS?Or perhaps an expressed message?Oh no he couldn't possibly mean that.He must be saying that there is such a thing as inherently sinful music!Yes! That is the conclusion I must make!
    Scriptural distinction between inherently sinful music and anything else please.

    *cough* book, chapter, verse *cough*
    Yeah sorry didn't mean to use the common sense approach.I forgot you need to manufacture your case.Oh, by the way, where did he say that the style of music that men were using was inherently sinful and not to borrow from it?Oh, you inferred that? Oh, ok then, case dismissed.

    ...in fact it was such common knowledge that it isn't mentioned in the Bible one single time!Wow! What a fantastic discovery!

    History of the world, by judge, jury and executioner Aaron.

    engrish prz.
    Keep twisting that Scripture and I'll keep setting it straight.

    oh, and yes, I've got some music in right now.No wait.yep. That's music.Guess I do know what it is.

    If I was taking instruction from you I would be making blanket judgements against the salvation of thousands of people I don't even know.Nah, I think I'll stick to taking my instruction from Scripture and teachers who are guided by a love for the Lord rather than a hatred for that which they can't understand.

    ..and there it is folks, free license to create new moral law! Woohoo! All bow before the wisdom of Aaron, who is able to discern what we commoners could not understand!

    Okies then I'll keep telling you that no music has ever elicited a sinful desire in me whatsoever, and you keep avoiding scripture and telling me that scientists and the history of music prove that wrong. Sound like a plan?

    Are there any other groups of people whose self proclaimed salvation the almighty Aaron would like to reveal the wrath of his judgement against?

    Just curious, it's not even like you need Scripture to do it.

    In case you haven't guessed I no longer take a word you say seriously.

    But on a very serious note I urge you to consider the levity of things you are saying.This is not a light thing Aaron.

    [ July 01, 2002, 02:58 AM: Message edited by: Odemus ]
     

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