Heaven populated w/out the cross?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Luke2427, Jan 26, 2011.

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  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427
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    Some argue that babies all go to heaven. This is not a point of contention for me. I lean that way myself.

    But some of these who argue that say that the reason why is because they are born without sin. They say that these babies suffer the effects of sin physically but not spiritually. They say that these humans are "not guilty".

    If they are not guilty of any sin then they do not need the blood of Christ to get into heaven. They have no sin for which needed atonement. Therefore, they get in without the cross altogether.

    This means this:

    Heaven is mostly populated by humans who got in without the blood of Christ. Most of Heaven's human citizens did not come by way of the cross.
    Most of Heaven's human citizens cannot praise the Lamb who died for them because he did NOT die for them- they got in because they are "not guilty".

    I base this "most" on a little research where I found that about 42 million babies are aborted worldwide each year and 8.03 million children die of starvation in the world every year and the natural death toll each year for ALL people including children is only, 54,750,000.

    So every year more children (or at least close to as many) die than adults and most adults are NOT going to heaven and ALL babies ARE going to heaven.

    So indeed, if babies are not guilty, then Heaven is by and LARGE populated without the cross of Christ.

    It is foreseeable that less than 10 percent of the human population of heaven gets there by the cross if babies are "not guilty"!!!

    Indeed when humans sing around the rainbow enshrouded, lightening lit throne of Christ, "Praise the Lamb who was slain for us!!", most of the human population will sit by in silence with the angels for that is a song that they cannot sing.

    Isn't that a HORRIBLE doctrine to you?
     
    #1 Luke2427, Jan 26, 2011
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  2. convicted1

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    Okay......Bro Luke, let's take a look at the OT believers. They died before Christ came and took on His body of flesh and died. Are they going to heaven? Sure they are!! I have heard many a sermon where the preacher stated that the blood went to the hinder sea and former sea, and by doing this, it cleansed them. I can't find this anywhere in the OT. Here is what they were trying to state:

    Zach. 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

    This verse here says that "living waters" shall flow to the toward the former sea, and half to the hinder sea. So where does it state anywhere that they blood went back to cover the OT saints?

    I just found this in Rev ch. 14:

    Revelation 14
    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. I believe these 144,000 here are those who got up with Jessu.

    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. Christ is the "firstfruit of them which slept".

    5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

    It said here that they were redeemed from the earth, but it makes no mention of the blood.

    Rev. 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

    11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

    12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

    13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Matt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    After Jesus got up, they got up also.

    By jove, I think you got it!! Do we have an "amen"?? ;thumbs: :thumbs:????


    The only way to heaven was by Jesus' death?? Ask Enoch and Elijah this question and see what they would tell you. Granted Elijah came back(or Elijah's soul did) as John the Baptist, and they went to heaven and didn't die at that time. As far as I know, Enoch never did taste death, he was translated out of here straight to heaven!! So there are some instances where someone went to heaven without some type of ailment, whether it be illness, murder, being a martyr(sp?), etc. Without Jesus' death on Calvary, the way home for us wouldn't be possible. That is what His death did for the OT saints. It opened to "highway of holiness" for us!!

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
    #2 convicted1, Jan 26, 2011
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  3. pinoybaptist

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    some through the waters, some through the flood;
    some through the fire, but all through the blood.

    that's what I mean when I say that ALL for whom the blood flowed have had their sins atoned for.
    ALL.
    Chinese, Japanese, Filipino, American, Singaporean, Malaysian, Mongol, Tibetan, American, European, Australian, black, white, red, yellow, brown, olive, intelligent, dumb, baptist, catholic, jw, sda, muslim, buddhist, Jew, baby, adult, teenager, everything else in between, North Pole, South Pole, West Hemispher, East Hemisphere, Tropical zone, Torrid zone, the blood of Christ covered ALL for whom they flowed. ALL for whom mercy and grace were extended by the great One in Three long before any of them were ever born, lived, died.
     
    #3 pinoybaptist, Jan 26, 2011
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  4. Luke2427

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    Willis what I am about to say does not mean that I think you are not saved.

    But that is the worst doctrine I have ever heard a Baptist espouse- the dead level worse.

    Winman has promoted some doosies on here but to say that there are multitudes in heaven who got there without the cross- well I can't tell you what that is because it may cause me to be booted off baptistboard.

    That is HORRIBLE dear brother.

    Enoch got to heaven the same way you and I will- through the blood of Jesus Christ. They looked to the cross- we look back at it. But the blood of bulls and goats could not save in the OT- it was only a picture of the only thing that has ever been able to save- the blood of Christ.

    You REALLY need to get this straight.

    I hoped by my OP to show how RIDICULOUS your position was- BUT YOU LITERALLY EMBRACED THE OP!!!!
     
  5. convicted1

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    Chill Brother, chill. In your zeal to show us who hold to freewill wrong, you look through posts, and not at them.

    Here is an excerpt from what I posted:


    I NEVER took the cross out, but I showed where two people (Enoch and Elijah) were taken to heaven without dying a natural death. I know that their deaths weren't the norm, but these did happen without them dying from from physical ailment, or being murdered/martyred, etc. I was using these as examples of how some did leave here without the "pains" of death happening to them. Now when they left here, I do believe their bodies were changed from "natural" to "spiritual", because "no flesh will glory in His prescense", so in that since, they "died". I look at these as an example of how those who are alive when Jesus returns, they will be changed much like Enoch was. And of course they were looking to the cross, but the OT saints died "in faith", and had to wait for the crucifixion of Jesus to occur.


    In Zach. 14:8 it states "living waters", which came from Jesus after the roman soldier pierced Him in the side. So I NEVER took the cross out! In your veracity to prove us(FW's) wrong, you read into posts what you want to take out of it, and then fire away "willy-nilly". In John chapter 4, Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well, "if ye ask of me, I would give you "LIVING WATER" that would be in you a well springing up into everlasting life!!!"


    Jesus is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE, and without Him, we are less than nothing!! But, please read the posts on here THOROUGHLY before you critque us.


    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  6. annsni

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    Every believer in the Old Testament went to heaven based on the blood of the Lamb of God - not for any other reason.



    So babies are born completely morally innocent? Then we should celebrate abortion and the murder of babies. It is a great moral help to them because then 100% of them go to heaven but if we wait until they can make a choice, the majority would go to hell.



    Wait - You say that Elijah came back - reincarnated as John the Baptist? Seriously??

    And I do not see ANY Scripture that says that ANYONE goes to heaven outside of Jesus' death. To say that Jesus' death is not the only way for someone to get to heaven is a serious heresy and it means that Christ's death was not only unnecessary but insufficient. :tear:
     
  7. Amy.G

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    Ann, I can't believe you said this. Murder is sin. Why would a Christian celebrate it?
     
  8. calvin

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    Christ blood on the cross redeemed all of creation. that includes infants, and the unborn. they cannot make a concious decision. so yes, their sin inheireted from adam is covered. also remember the Lords words. " let the little children come unto me, for such is the kingdom of God." children who die, do enter into heaven covered by that redemptive blood. there is no other way in. nothing unclean can enter. hope this helps :smilewinkgrin:
     
  9. calvin

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    Hi Amy. i think i understand where Ann is coming from. shes being kind of toungue and cheek. i dont think shes celebrating the practice of abortion. in fact, im quite sure of it, God bless her. Peace :jesus:
     
  10. Tater77

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    Ezekiel 18 (New International Version, ©2010)

    1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:

    “‘The parents eat sour grapes,
    and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

    3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die. ​

    Then verses 5-16 compare and contrast a righteous and unrighteous son and father. This proverb means that the child is guilty for the parents sins. Which the LORD God Himself banish (the proverb) with a divine banhammer. If God says it aint so, its all I need. This alone makes you question the whole born guilty/original sin doctrine doesnt it? But wait, theres more......

    17 He withholds his hand from mistreating the poor
    and takes no interest or profit from them.
    He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.

    He will not die for his father’s sin; he will surely live. ​

    Now at this point it should become obvious that we are only responsible for our own sins.

    19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live.
    20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. ​

    Now pay attention to verse 20, " the one who sins will die". What sin has a baby committed? What are they responsible for? I've heard the saying that a baby sins when they cry when nothing is wrong, because they are lying. That is a huge load of crap. Not to mention sick and twisted.

    Now the following "The child will not share the guilt of the parent". If you aren't guilty for you mom or dads sins then that must conclude you are only guilty for your own. Makes you question the effects of Adams' sin doesn't it?

    Another time in the OT God doesn't hold children responsible and tells why.

    Deuteronomy 1:38-39 (New International Version, ©2010)

    38 But your assistant, Joshua son of Nun, will enter it. Encourage him, because he will lead Israel to inherit it.
    39 And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from badthey will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it. ​

    These are the key words "who do not yet know good from bad".

    If children are given this much Grace under the law. How much more are they given by the Cross of Christ?

    Do I need to go on?
     
  11. menageriekeeper

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    I think Tater has the gist of it.

    Children have a sin nature, but the Bible is clear that they aren't responsible for that sin until they understand right from wrong. Who then takes the responsibility for that sin, seeing as no man(in this case I mean adult) bears the burden of another's sin? Hmm, easy one! Christ takes that responsibility. His blood covers it all, automatically.

    Yes, I do believe that "babies" will be the majority in heaven. Christ said, "for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Doesn't get much plainer.
     
  12. Tom Bryant

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    Isn't that sort of a big jump from that statement of Christ to saying that children are the majority of inhabitants in heaven?
     
  13. menageriekeeper

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    Nope. Lets look at it logically.

    Through history, what group of humans had the highest death rate? Children and infants.

    If 100% of children and infants go to heaven and only 10% (as espoused earlier in the thread) of adults accept Christ and go to heaven, where is the break even point? (the point at which and equal number of adults and children inhabit heaven) (someone here will have to find and run the numbers I gotta go!)
     
  14. annsni

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    It would be the logical conclusion to the idea that children are born with an inheritance in heaven but then they lose it at some point in time. I love my children. Why would I want them to be able to choose not to follow Christ? Life on this earth is quite short compared to eternity and my children's eternal destiny is vitally important to me. So I'm just going where the logic takes us.
     
  15. annsni

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    :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
     
  16. annsni

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    See? Then we should make sure our children don't end up as the 90%.

    Honestly, I don't see any Scripture that says 100% of children go to heaven.
     
  17. freeatlast

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    First off you are dealing with a doctrine (age of accountability) that is not even mentioned in scripture. What we do have is the reason why mankind is lost and how mankind gets saved. In all truth that leaves out babies so men have taken some VERY limited scriptures and built this doctrine of age of accountability on their own and even in that the doctrine varies a great deal between what one holds and another.
    Now that being said i am not saying babies go to hell. I am simply trying to point out thta there is no clear teaching about what happens to them, but for now let's assume they go to be with the Lord if they die.

    The next issue is do they have sin. The answer is no they do not have personal sin that they have done, but yes they have sin because they are in Adam and all have sinned.
    Romans 5:12
    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    What Christ did at the cross is pay for the sin of Adam. He paid for the only sin that can cause men to be lost and because we are all in Adam by birth we are all covered by the second Adam (Jesus) in the case of a baby it is believed that because they have no personal sin that God applies the blood of Christ to them and they go to heaven.
     
  18. Luke2427

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    I don't think u can support this idea with scripture that Christ died for Adam's sin, but I certainly find your position to be more orthodox than Willis and webdogs position.
     
  19. Luke2427

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    The bible is not clear on the matter. I am surprised to see you declare that it is. I wish the bible was clear. I have five children. But the facts and what we want and feel are not one and the same.
     
  20. freeatlast

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    Christ died not for Adam's sin, but for the sin of Adam. There is a difference.
    Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Then in John we have;
    The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    Notice Sin singular, not sins plural. He took away the lost state of man brought onto all men because of one man's sin. Now after the garden there is no law given that can cause man to be lost. The only law that could cause the fall was the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That tree is no more. No other commandment causes man to be lost. And no law saves except the law of the cross which cannot be overcome. The cross was greater then the creation because there is no law given to kill man after they are born again.
     
    #20 freeatlast, Jan 26, 2011
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