Hebrews 11

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, Mar 29, 2014.

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  1. steaver

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    For those here who embrace TULIP, what would you say the application from Hebrews 11 would be for Christians. What is the message? Did these people mentioned do any great thing since from TULIP's perspective it is God who caused their faith and obedience?
     
  2. psalms109:31

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    C.H. Spurgeon "All of Grace" Is a little book, it is free online

    http://www.spurgeon.org/all_of_g.htm

    8
    FAITH, WHAT IS IT?


    WHAT IS THIS FAITH concerning which it is said, "By grace are ye saved, through faith?" There are many descriptions of faith; but almost all the definitions I have met with have made me understand it less than I did before I saw them. The Negro said, when he read the chapter, that he would confound it; and it is very likely that he did so, though he meant to expound it. We may explain faith till nobody understands it. I hope I shall not be guilty of that fault. Faith is the simplest of all things, and perhaps because of its simplicity it is the more difficult to explain.
    What is faith? It is made up of three things—knowledge, belief, and trust. Knowledge comes first. "How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?" I want to be informed of a fact before I can possibly believe it. "Faith cometh by hearing"; we must first hear, in order that we may know what is to be believed. "They that know thy name shall put their trust in thee." A measure of knowledge is essential to faith; hence the importance of getting knowledge. "Incline your ear, and come unto me; hear, and your soul shall live." Such was the word of the ancient prophet, and it is the word of the gospel still. Search the Scriptures and learn what the Holy Spirit teacheth concerning Christ and His salvation. Seek to know God: "For he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." May the Holy Spirit give you the spirit of knowledge, and of the fear of the Lord! Know the gospel: know what the good news is, how it talks of free forgiveness, and of change of heart, of adoption into the family of God, and of countless other blessings. Know especially Christ Jesus the Son of God, the Saviour of men, united to us by His human nature, and yet one with God; and thus able to act as Mediator between God and man, able to lay His hand upon both, and to be the connecting link between the sinner and the Judge of all the earth. Endeavour to know more and more of Christ Jesus. Endeavour especially to know the doctrine of the sacrifice of Christ; for the point upon which saving faith mainly fixes itself is this— "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them." Know that Jesus was "made a curse for us, as it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree." Drink deep of the doctrine of the substitutionary work of Christ; for therein lies the sweetest possible comfort to the guilty sons of men, since the Lord "made him to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." Faith begins with knowledge.
    The mind goes on to believe that these things are true. The soul believes that God is, and that He hears the cries of sincere hearts; that the gospel is from God; that justification by faith is the grand truth which God hath revealed in these last days by His Spirit more clearly than before. Then the heart believes that Jesus is verily and in truth our God and Saviour, the Redeemer of men, the Prophet, Priest, and King of His people. All this is accepted as sure truth, not to be called in question. I pray that you may at once come to this. Get firmly to believe that "the blood of Jesus Christ, God's dear Son, cleanseth us from all sin"; that His sacrifice is complete and fully accepted of God on man's behalf, so that he that believeth on Jesus is not condemned. Believe these truths as you believe any other statements; for the difference between common faith and saving faith lies mainly in the subjects upon which it is exercised. Believe the witness of God just as you believe the testimony of your own father or friend. "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater."
    So far you have made an advance toward faith; only one more ingredient is needed to complete it, which is trust. Commit yourself to the merciful God; rest your hope on the gracious gospel; trust your soul on the dying and living Saviour; wash away your sins in the atoning blood; accept His perfect righteousness, and all is well. Trust is the lifeblood of faith; there is no saving faith without it. The Puritans were accustomed to explain faith by the word "recumbency." It meant leaning upon a thing. Lean with all your weight upon Christ. It would be a better illustration still if I said, fall at full length, and lie on the Rock of Ages. Cast yourself upon Jesus; rest in Him; commit yourself to Him. That done, you have exercised saving faith. Faith is not a blind thing; for faith begins with knowledge. It is not a speculative thing; for faith believes facts of which it is sure. It is not an unpractical, dreamy thing; for faith trusts, and stakes its destiny upon the truth of revelation. That is one way of describing what faith is.
    Let me try again. Faith is believing that Christ is what He is said to be, and that He will do what He has promised to do, and then to expect this of Him. The Scriptures speak of Jesus Christ as being God, God is human flesh; as being perfect in His character; as being made of a sin-offering on our behalf; as bearing our sins in His own body on the tree. The Scripture speaks of Him as having finished transgression, made an end of sin, and brought in everlasting righteousness. The sacred records further tell us that He "rose again from the dead," that He "ever liveth to make intercession for us," that He has gone up into the glory, and has taken possession of Heaven on the behalf of His people, and that He will shortly come again "to judge the world in righteousness, and his people with equity." We are most firmly to believe that it is even so; for this is the testimony of God the Father when He said, "This is my beloved Son; hear ye him." This also is testified by God the Holy Spirit; for the Spirit has borne witness to Christ, both in the inspired Word and by divers miracles, and by His working in the hearts of men. We are to believe this testimony to be true.
    Faith also believes that Christ will do what He has promised; that since He has promised to cast out none that come to Him, it is certain that He will not cast us out if we come to Him. Faith believes that since Jesus said, "The water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everasting life, it must be true; and if we get this living Water from Christ it will abide in us, and will well up within us in streams of holy life. Whatever Christ has promised to do He will do, and we must believe this, so as to look for pardon, justification, preservation, and eternal glory from His hands, according as He has promised them to believers in Him.
    Then comes the next necessary step. Jesus is what He is said to be, Jesus will do what He says He will do; therefore we must each one trust Him, saying, "He will be to me what He says He is, and He will do to me what He has promised to do; I leave myself in the hands of Him who is appointed to save, that He may save me. I rest upon His promise that He will do even as He has said." This is a saving faith, and he that hath it hath everlasting life. Whatever his dangers and difficulties, whatever his darkness and depression, whatever his infirmities and sins, he that believeth thus on Christ Jesus is not condemned, and shall never come into condemnation.
    May that explanation be of some service! I trust it may be used by the Spirit of God to direct my reader into immediate peace. "Be not afraid; only believe." Trust, and be at rest.
    My fear is lest the reader should rest content with understanding what is to be done, and yet never do it. Better the poorest real faith actually at work, than the best ideal of it left in the region of speculation. The great matter is to believe on the Lord Jesus at once. Never mind distinctions and definitions. A hungry man eats though he does not understand the composition of his food, the anatomy of his mouth, or the process of digestion: he lives because he eats. Another far more clever person understands thoroughly the science of nutrition; but if he does not eat he will die, with all his knowledge. There are, no doubt, many at this hour in Hell who understood the doctrine of faith, but did not believe. On the other hand, not one who has trusted in the Lord Jesus has ever been cast out, though he may never have been able intelligently to define his faith. Oh dear reader, receive the Lord Jesus into your soul, and you shall live forever! "He that believeth in Him hath everlasting life."
     
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  3. steaver

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    Sounds like Spurgeon was a non-Cal. But rather than asking what is faith, I was looking for the TULIP believers application of Hebrews 11 in the believers life.
     
  4. kyredneck

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    ....the righteous by his stedfastness liveth. Hab 2:4

    who will render to every man according to his works: to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2:6,7

    ....I by my works will show thee my faith. Ja 2:18
     
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  5. psalms109:31

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    Faith is a noun you have to believe in a verb. Faith comes from God by hearing.

    Romans 10:17
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word [Or concerning Christ]of Christ.

    Romans 10:17
    King James Version (KJV)
    17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Ephesians 1:13
    And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

    All those who are in Hebrews 11 heard the message of their salvation their faith(noun) and believed(verb) and was credited His righteousness.

    If Spurgeon is not a Calvinist then I am not either. He is the only one who got me to embrace Calvinism, because he does not change the word of God to make his belief system works. Some on both sides of the debate do.

    My signature say's a lot.

    Psalm 73:28
    But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.


    Romans 4
    New International Version (NIV)
    Abraham Justified by Faith

    4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22]

    4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
     
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  6. steaver

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    It seems to me the Hebrews writer is lifting these people up as great examples of faithful men and women as though they had a choice to obey God or go their own way. TULIP would teach that these folks only did what God caused them to do. If they had no choice in their matters then "so what?".
     
  7. steaver

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    Amen! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  8. psalms109:31

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    There is only 2 wills our will that leads to death and His will that leads to life eternal. Those in Hebrew 11 are those who followed His will not their own.

    Matthew 6:10
    Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.

    Luke 22:42
    saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

    John 5:30
    I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

    John 6:40
    40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”



    I was a man in the tulip before Christ, Jesus word changed me and gave me life.



    John 14:24
    Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

    John 6:63
    The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

    John 6:53
    Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.


    John 6:45
    It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

    John 10:30
    I and the Father are one.”

    Matthew 11:29
    Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

    John 14:6
    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    1 Peter 1:23
    For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

    Jesus save me or I will perish
     
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  9. steaver

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    But that does not answer the question "so what?". Why is the Hebrews writer making a big deal of them? What is it to us Christians that these people were faithful at following God's will? They had no choice in the matter, correct?
     
  10. psalms109:31

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    No one will come unless they listen and learn and when we listen and learn His loving kindness will draw us to Himself


    Jeremiah 31:3
    The Lord appeared to him from afar, saying, “I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness.


    There is no choice we will come for we will desire nothing else. He changes us and gives us a new will His will not our own. It does not come from ourselves but from Him(His word).


    Those who don't listen and learn, do not have any faith to come to.


    Romans 10:
    14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[Isaiah 52:7]


    No one is good praise God because Jesus came to save sinners and I am the worse not the righteous.


    1 Timothy 1:15
    It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.


    No one seeks God praise God that is why we are sent to seek them.


    Acts 1:8
    But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”


    Jeremiah 23:
    15 “Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets,

    ‘Behold, I am going to feed them wormwood
    And make them drink poisonous water,
    For from the prophets of Jerusalem
    Pollution has gone forth into all the land.’”
    16 Thus says the Lord of hosts,
    “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you.
    They are leading you into futility;
    They speak a vision of their own [Lit heart]imagination,
    Not from the mouth of the Lord.
    17 “They keep saying to those who despise Me,
    ‘The Lord has said, “You will have peace”’;
    And as for everyone who walks in the stubbornness of his own heart,
    They say, ‘Calamity will not come upon you.’
    18 “But who has stood in the council of the Lord,
    That he should see and hear His word?
    Who has given heed to [Another reading is My]His word and listened?
    19 “Behold, the storm of the Lord has gone forth in wrath,
    Even a whirling tempest;
    It will swirl down on the head of the wicked.
    20 “The anger of the Lord will not turn back
    Until He has performed and carried out the purposes of His heart;
    In the last days you will clearly understand it.
    21 “I did not send these prophets,
    But they ran.
    I did not speak to them,
    But they prophesied.
    22 “But if they had stood in My council,
    Then they would have announced My words to My people,
    And would have turned them back from their evil way
    And from the evil of their deeds.
     
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  11. steaver

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    All wonderful stuff to debate, you could start a thread on these if you like.

    But back to my question and the OP topic at hand.....

    But that does not answer the question "so what?". Why is the Hebrews writer making a big deal of them? What is it to us Christians that these people were faithful at following God's will? They had no choice in the matter, correct?
     
  12. psalms109:31

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    We have a choice to listen a learn those who don't will not come.

    His word is Spirit and life if we don't eat we have no life.

    It is just like Spurgeon is talking about.

    If we eat physically we live, that a life is sacrificed for us to live physically.

    It is the same spiritually if we don't eat the bread that came down from we are dead, when we eat we will have life Spiritually.

    You have a choice to eat to live physically just like you have a choice to eat Spiritual food to live Jesus is sacrificed for us to eat to live Spiritually

    John 6:
    41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

    52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”

    You live off of what you eat not because of something in and of yourself.

    Something has to die for you to live and you must eat.

    God gives life, but you have a choice to eat to continue to live!
     
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  13. Winman

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    It makes absolutely no sense to praise and compliment men and women for great faith as Hebrews 11 obviously does in the Reformed/Calvinist view. In fact, it is almost blasphemous for a Calvinist to praise a man for something only God can do in their system.

    Yet it cannot be denied that Hebrews 11 praises and compliments certain men and women for having great faith.

    Much of scripture does not make sense if Calvinism is true, Hebrews chapter 11 is an excellent example.
     
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  14. steaver

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    With all due respect psalms, I don't think you are addressing the OP questions. Since I have learn over the years of the dozens of theological views swirling around in the Christian world, I test views by deliberating the practical real life application of those views. Hebrews 11, as well as all scripture, was given to us for our edification, our sanctification, so we may apply the teachings to our lives. So what is the message found in Hebrews 11? How does the message help me live my Christian walk with Christ? If TULIP is correct, does Hebrews 11 even matter then? So what if these people had great faith? Didn't God form them that way?
     
  15. psalms109:31

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    Yes through the new creation being born again by the enduring word of God. They are eating so they will live.

    2 Timothy 2 :

    14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

    20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

    22 Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

    God's word is what forms us to be useful or not.

    We are all made for destruction who can save me from this body of death, Praise be to Jesus.

    The old creation is not being changed, but the new creation in Christ is becoming the new creation being changed.

    We are born again through the enduring word of God, becoming this new creation.

    Those who believed God are credited His righteous, they are the one's who are created for honor those who are in Christ because of Him not for what they done but what Christ has done.
     
  16. steaver

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    Doesn't it appear to you that the Hebrews writer is telling us to exercise faith as these men and women had exercised faith?
     
  17. psalms109:31

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    Faith causes action, without the word of God we have no saving or crediting faith to do action. It goes good to bring us into James book. I'll show you my faith by what I do. Faith comes by hearing.
     
  18. Inspector Javert

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    Yes, Faith is a noun. But not always or necessarily a concrete noun.
    A noun can be a person, place, thing or idea.

    "ingenuity" is a noun.
    "tardiness" is a noun.

    "Greatness", is a noun too: but it's purpose is to modify a more concrete noun, like God who is possessed of ultimate "greatness". In so being it would be functioning as an adjective.

    Sometimes, I think those who are Calvinists (and even those who aren't) put too much emphasis upon the part of speech of "Faith" and insist, then, that that means it is a THING which must either be given or taken possessed or not possessed.

    Sometimes, it is used that way of course, and the Scriptures even call faith "substance" and "evidence" defining it as a "thing". But it mustn't always be used that way. If the Scriptures say "have faith" or "believe" it is telling you to DO something, take an ACTION!. "Faithfulness" isn't a "thing".

    Biblically, one can both HAVE great faith....implying it's a thing
    or even SHOW great faith....implying a verbal action.

    So, I wouldn't let which part of speech a word is take liberties with my Theology like that.
     
  19. psalms109:31

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    Faith is made up of three knowledge that comes from God through His word and belief and trust that comes from us.

    God just has to give us the knowledge, trust and belief comes from us because God does not have to believe or trust in His self we do. Faith comes from the word of God a noun still it does not take away belief and trust a verb.

    Spurgeon does the best at explaining faith. It is ours when we trust and believe in it.

    Faith to is a noun because of the knowledge that has to come with it.

    Believe and trust is the verb of it.

    The problem comes when men believe to trust God is a work. God does not consider trust a work only men do.

    Romans 4
    New International Version (NIV)
    Abraham Justified by Faith

    4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

    4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

    Saving faith a noun comes from hearing and putting it into practice.
     
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  20. The Archangel

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    The challenge with your question--and why it can't be answered directly--is due to the last sentence "They had no choice in the matter..." This is not correct.

    Those that hold to the DoG do not agree that there "no choice in the matter." Of course our opponents, somewhat disingenuously, charge us with this "fatalism" or "determinism," but it's nothing but a Strawman.

    In essence, your question needs to be separated into two lines of thought--1) Salvation, and 2) Sanctification.

    In salvation, we do not say that we have no choice. I summarize the DoG in salvation and the Calvinistic soteriology this way: God makes the unwilling willing. So, yes, we come to Christ on our own, but it is in response to God's drawing and work. It is not the cause of God's drawing and work...

    In sanctification, we, in one sense, participate. God is conforming us to the image and likeness of Christ. But, we are not passive participants in this. We are commanded to actively participate in our sanctification--reading our Bibles, praying, sharing the Gospel, fleeing sinful things, etc.

    So, if one can separate these things, it's much easier to approach a proper answer. After all, Paul does say "imitate me as I imitate Christ." And, Hebrews 11 gives great examples of those who finished the race well, by God's grace. But, even in talking about finishing the race well, chapter 11 can't be taken in isolation...

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
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