Hebrews 6:4-6

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by saturneptune, Oct 9, 2006.

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  1. saturneptune

    saturneptune
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    This has always been a difficult passage for me. No doubt this has been discussed before. If, as most of us do, believe in the harmony of the Bible, and believe in eternal security, it would be interesting to know what others think about the phrase "if they fall away." Is the author speaking to those already saved and this is a hypothetical situation, or is this people who are at the brink of salvation and never acquire that saving faith? If so, are they lost forever because they went to the brink? Is there a better explanation? Thanks for your thoughts.
     
  2. webdog

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    Note the phrase "...IF they...". It is indeed hypothetical.
     
  3. Bro Tony

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    Correct---and not only that according to this passage if they could loose their salvation they could not be saved again. So much for the theology that tells people to get saved over and over again.

    Bro Tony
     
  4. Ed Edwards

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    This is the proof-text for OSAS
    (once saved, always saved, AKA: Security of the Believer)!

    I'll explain reverse Greek Logic later:
    AKA reducto-absurdem, reduction to the absurd.
     
  5. Tom Butler

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    saturneptune and I were in the same Sunday School class where this was discussed this past Sunday. It is a difficult passage.

    One thing to keep in mind is the context, which is basically the first five chapters. Paul is writing to Hebrew Christians, arguing that the New Covenant is better than the old one. He reminded them that under the Old Covenant, the High Priest eventually died, and the atonement sacrifice was not permanent--it had to be repeated each year.

    Under the better New Covenant, Jesus the High Priest conquered death, is still living, and his atonement sacrifice will be good as long as he lives--forever.

    In Chapter 6, the writer is warning the Hebrew Christians. If you, he writes, having embraced grace and Christ's sacrifice, then return to the old way, you are in effect saying that Christ's sacrifice was not once for all time. You are saying that Christ must be continually crucified (just as the once-a-year sacrificial lamb). You're saying that your original repentance must be renewed periodically.

    If you embrace that, then you're in big trouble, because Christ will not be sacrificed again and that makes your renewed repentance useless (because it is based on the sacrifice.) In effect, you are holding Christ and his sacrifice in contempt.

    And by the way, says the writer, if you can be lost after being saved the first time, you can never be saved again, since Christ will not be crucified again.

    This is similar to what Paul wrote to the Galations about the Judaizers, who indeed preached salvation by grace through faith, but wanted to add keeping the law as necessary for salvation.

    The term "fall away" cannot mean falling from grace, or losing your salvation. It means backing away from grace and returning to the law.

    Part of the discussion we had was whether this passage refers to believers or those who had been exposed to the gospel and turned away from it without embracing it. I tend to think it is written to believers, but I can argue the other view just as well.
     
  6. Ed Edwards

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    The example of Reducto-absurdem (RA) in Hebrews 6:4-6:

    Heb 6:4-6 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For it is impossible for

    those who were once inlightned,
    and haue tasted of the heauenly gift,
    and were made partakers of the holy Ghost,
    5 And haue tasted the good word of God,
    and the powers of the world to come;

    6 If they shall fall away,
    to renue them againe vnto repentance:

    seeing they crucifie to themselues the Sonne of God afresh,
    and put him to an open shame.

    INTRODUCITON TO THE R/A,
    STATEMENT OF INTENTION:
    For it is impossible for

    THE TRUE PROPOSITIONS (STATEMENTS):
    those who were once inlightned,
    and haue tasted of the heauenly gift,
    and were made partakers of the holy Ghost,
    5 And haue tasted the good word of God,
    and the powers of the world to come;

    THE PROPOSITION (STATEMENT) TO BE PROVED FALSE:
    6 If they shall fall away, to renue them againe vnto repentance:

    THE THEN PORTION (THE CONCLUSION)
    THAT LOGICALLY FOLLOWS THOSE IF PROPOSITIONS:
    seeing they crucifie to themselues the Sonne of God afresh,
    and put him to an open shame.


    THE MISSING PARTS OF THE ARGUMENT:

    Of course, it is obsurd that Jesus will not be crucified
    again nor shamed. So the proposition to be proved
    false:
    6 If they shall fall away, to renue them againe vnto repentance:
    has been proved, the saved cannot fall away from salvation.

    However, I note about 1/3 of the New Testament is advice on
    how to live like a Christ-one, act like a Christ-one, talk
    like a Christ-one, be a Christ-one. So let us encourage one another
    to walk like a Christian, talk like a Christian, hope like a Christian.
     
    #6 Ed Edwards, Oct 9, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2006
  7. Brother Bob

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    I think it is telling just how impossible it is to "fall away".
     
  8. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother Brother Bob -- Preach it! :thumbs:
     
  9. Allan

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    Note the word "IF" in vs 6 - This does not necessitate that one can fall away but is correlating that "IF" it ever happened they can "NEVER" be saved a second time.

    A true believer can not LIVE in a life style of wickedness, without constant conviction (remorse of what they have done) and chastening of the Lord. Why, because we have been changed from the inside out - given a new nature (granted that contends with the old but it CAN be overcome) AND have been given the Holy Spirit that we WILL overcome and be empowed to be what we COULD NEVER be without these. Able to live a life pleasing unto the Lord!


    We are also "...sealed unto (till) the day of redemtion."

    Sealed - A kings signant used to waxseal documents ect with their ensignia... and was only to be opened/broken by its intended recipient. If it was opened or broken accidentally or by the wrong person the guards who were sent to assure it would be delivered saftly and intact would kill the messenger and they to would be punished upon return.

    Anyhoo, this means we are sealed by God (Holy Spirit given at salvation) until the day (or completion) of our redemtion. When God will authenticate you are His by His own seal upon you (The Holy Spirit).

    Jesus is also the author and finisher of our FAITH.
    This means He is the first cause and last clause of our salvation. It depends stricktly and only upon His ability to fulfill and keep His word/promises.
     
  10. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother Allan -- Preach it! :thumbs:
     
  11. Jarthur001

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    This may seem strange, but I disagree.

    I part from Calvin on this.....

    and...

    The newer "if" view would work, If it was in the text.

    I have my own idea on this. Read my book. :)
     
  12. whatever

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    I disagree too, but I have no book that anyone can read. But Hebrews was written to encourage Christians from a Jewish background, who were facing severe persecution, to not go back to Judaism. That's the reason for so many adminitions like this, in 3:12-14:
    That's a strange thing to say to those who could not have fallen away even had they wanted to.
     
  13. drfuss

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    Tom Butler writes:
    "saturneptune and I were in the same Sunday School class where this was discussed this past Sunday. It is a difficult passage."

    Tom, it is not such a difficult passage if you don't believe in eternal security.

    I am just pointing this out and suggesting that you look at it from that aspect.

    Don't expect an eternal security debate with me. I get tired of these type debates that go over and over and over the same things again and again.

    drfuss signing off on this thread.
     
  14. npetreley

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    Contrast

    IMO, the contrast says it all.

    Verses 4-8 describe something bad. I don't have to get any more specific than that to make my point. Verse 9 is the contrast, with the operative word being "but".

    "But", or "in contrast", we are confident of better things concerning you.

    Better things than what? Better things than what he said in verse 4-8.

    "yes, things that accompany salvation"

    In contrast to what? In contrast to the bad things in verses 4-8, which do not accompany salvation.
     
  15. Pipedude

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    Attention, O Bright Ones:

    You repeatedly make much of "if." Is that original with the writer, or did the translators add it?

    If it is added, you'd better drop that argument and go to argument B.

    If it is original, excuuuuuuuse me for suggesting otherwise.
     
  16. Allan

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    1. Which manuscripts do not have the translatable "IF" in the verse?

    2. How many manuscripts DO have the translatable "IF" with in it?

    3. Please show me (or advise where I can find these) the original manuscripts that never had the translatable word that CAN be rendered "IF" and all other succeeding manuscripts that instituted the newly added word which the originals did not.

    4. Even if you hold the "and then" translation instead of "IF" it does not change the context of what I stated earlier.

    Here is the same arguement with the "and then fall into apostacy" instead of "IF":

    The "and then fall into..." STILL does not necessitate that one CAN fall away but is correlating that once they are/have (become saved) AND THEN FALL... then after their fall, they can "NEVER" be saved a second time.

    This is not a statement be careful or you will loose your salvation, but a statement declaring the absolute hold God has on your salvation that is not due to your works or maintained by them either. You either are a beleiver who will (by the grace of God or His discipline) live a life that PROVES you are His, or you are not of His and therefore WILL live the life of an apostate -
    One who believes about but never in His saving Grace!
    Ever learning but never understaning!
    Having a FORM of Godliness (knowledge/actions) but denying the power thereof (Faith in His COMPLETED work)

    Brother ED gave a great example of Reducto-absurdem - AMEN!!

    The entire context of Chapter 6 in not about maintaining your salvation but that our very Hope is in God OUR salvaiton.
     
  17. Jarthur001

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    Final...someone looks at the text. :)

    I agree as I stated above. The "if" argument sounds kinda nice, but its not there. :) sorry about that.
     
  18. saturneptune

    saturneptune
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    Hello James,
    I posted this merely to learn. The verse has always puzzled me, so please elaborate.
     
  19. Jarthur001

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    Hello Brother Allan,


    All of them, other then MXLLL 13C <<<just made that up. :)

    none that I know of

    Go see Joe at Oxford..tell him James sent ya..and tell him I said you could look at the MSS. :)

    It does in change context in your statement above. Change "even if you hold" in your statement..to "and then you hold" and it changes context. "If" is saying it may/could happen. "And then" is stating fact.
     
  20. Jarthur001

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    Hello Saturn,

    Long time no chat. Let me do it this way because I am late. The key word for me...is "for". I'll clip and post what I wrote on this later today, or tonight.




    In Christ...James
     
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