HELL- Does it Burn Forever and Ever?

You seemed to completely ignore one word in this verse. EVERLASTING. The punishMENT is EVERLASTING. It does not end.

 

I think Jesus does not agree with you. He seemed to be making some "scary" comments when talking about the seriousness of avoiding hell...if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out...if you hand causes you to sin, cut it off...better to enter heaven maimed than to go where the fire is not quenched. (I was not trying to say this word for word as I am not looking at the verses right now)

 

I think he is referring to the title of this thread. You obviously have your opinion about the answer. I would guess that you would know that the vast majority on a Baptist forum would disagree with you. What exactly is your goal here? Were you hoping for meaningful exchange? Were you hoping to convert people to your belief on the matter? Or do you have doubts about what you believe and you wanted to see if you could adequately debate the "other side" where you can quench any doubts you may have on the matter?

I know that an eternal punishment in hell is not pleasant to think about. I hate the thought of unsaved family members dying and going there. But I accept it because it is what the Bible teaches.

I noticed that you are ignoring a lot of what people are saying in refutation of your statements. What you are giving as your "proof" is nothing new. The article I linked earlier dealt with I think all of the verses you have given thus far...including the one in Matthew that mentions "destroying both body and soul in hell". Did you take the time to read it?

 

Claudia_T,
Care to explain how one can cease to exist but still have no rest day or night?
Revelation 14:9-11
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

If one no longer exists, then the person can do nothing and can experience nothing, including rest or non-rest. Yet these verses say that these unbelievers will have no rest day or night.

How do you explain this?

 

Is there eternal fire in the Lake of fire?
Baptist and the KJV say it's true, so do MOST mainline denominations even the Roman Catholics. Butt (that's but in her goat language) Claudia and the New World Translation of the JW's say, not so! Remember she did admit to being only in first grade Spiritually.......personally I think that's a stretch!

 

Of course there is Eternal Fire in the Lake of Fire. That is the whole point of the Second Death. Not only the Lake of Fire but also Sodom and Gomorrah.

Jude
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

 

IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb and His Holy ones - the Angels (and as Jonathan Edwards admits -- the SAINTS)

So our/your loved ones are tormented IN our/your presence AND in the presence of the Lamb..

We get that part - the question is "how long"?

In Matt 10 Christ says they are "DESTROYED"

"Fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body and soul in fiery hell".

Their torment is real - and it does not cease for as long as they are aflame.

In Christ,

Bob

 

first off, the are going to have no rest day or night because you dont burn for a day and get let out at night to go party. (This statement shows an ignorance and a disrespect for the Word of God.)

Secondly,

In this fire will there be torment? and how long will it last?
"He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever." Rev. 14:10, 11.
NOTE. - The Greek term translated in this text "forever and ever," has different meanings; according to the connection in which it is used, such as, duration, finite or infinite; unlimited duration, past or future; time, age, lifetime; the world, universe. Greenfield.

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the lord shall be as the fat of lambs; they shall consume, into smoke shall they consume away. Ps. 37:20.

you have to COMPARE Bible verses

Ok, Let's COMPARE:
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
The original word translated here as "punishment" means torment, or suffering inflicted for crime. The noun is used but in one other place in the New Testament - 1Jo_4:18; "Fear hath ‘torment.’" The verb from which the noun is derived is twice used - Act_4:21; 2Pe_2:9. In all these places it denotes anguish, suffering, punishment. It does not mean simply a "state or condition," but absolute, positive suffering; and if this word does not teach it, no word "could" express the idea that the wicked would suffer. It has been contended that the sufferings of the wicked will not be eternal or without end. It is not the purpose of these notes to enter into debates of that kind further than to ascertain the meaning of the language used by the sacred writers. In regard to the meaning of the word "everlasting" in this place, it is to be observed:
1. that the literal meaning of the word expresses absolute eternity - "always belong," Mat_18:8; Mat_19:16; Mar_3:29; Rom_2:7; Heb_5:9.
2. that the obvious and plain interpretation of the word demands this signification in this place. The original word - αἰώνιον aionion - is employed in the New Testament 66 times. Of these, in 51 instances it is used of the happiness of the righteous; in two, of God’s existence; in six, of the church and the Messiah’s kingdom; and in the remaining seven, of the future punishment of the wicked. If in these seven instances we attach to the word the idea of limited duration, consistency requires that the same idea of limited duration should be given it in the 51 cases of its application to the future glory of the righteous, and the two instances of its application to God’s existence, and the six eases of its appropriation to the future reign of the Messiah and the glory and perpetuity of the church. But no one will presume to deny that in these instances it denotes unlimited duration, and therefore, in accordance with the sound laws of interpretation and of language itself, the same sense of unlimited duration must be given it when used of future punishment - Owen

 

Here you have exposed an assumption. You ASSUME that death is a finite and singular occurence. However, death has many meanings and properties. You can be 'dying' but not be dead. Additionally, because your body dies, doesn't mean your spirit dies. This is the basis for christianity. So what is death? How do you define death? One definition could be 'the opposite of life'. Well, we know that God is life, so death could be separation from God. However, death has many other associations. Death could mean poverty, or suffering, or pain.

Think of this -- Jesus died. WHILE HE WAS DEAD and in hell, he preached to the saints there, and lead captivity captive. Pretty active for a dead guy, eh? He also took the keys of hell from Satan. All this while dead. Even when he appeared to Mary Magdalane days later, he had not yet gone to the Father.

Death is not a finite ceasing of existance. Death is a separation from life. God is life. Therefore death is a separation from God. Just because we define death medically as the crossing of a specific threshhold, doesn't mean this is God's definition of death. In fact, God told Adam that "in the day he eats of the fruit" he would die. In fact, Adam lived another 900+ years after death came. So we see that death is a process. Decay is another form of death. Organisms do not instantly decay, the decaying process takes time.

But think of the life we have in christ. Think of the life given to Shadrach, Meshack, and Abednigo. They stood in the hottest fire and were not consumed. THIS is the life possible when God sustains everything at 100%. Think of the Israelites when they marched in the desert for 40 years without their shoes or clothing wearing out. THIS is an example of God sustaining life. Your shoes wearing out is an example of death... decay. Without the sustaining power of God, there is death. Because God designed us as eternal beings with a spirit there can be "everlasting punishment". Meaning, a punishment that never ends.

The semantecs between punishING and punishMENT is a matter of judgement in an eternal state. Punishing would mean that God could choose to end the punishing becuse it was not 'complete'. However, punishment means that all the judgement that is going to happen has been completed, and the recompense decided with finality. Basically, an "everlasting punishment" is the execution of punitive action for all eternity with no opportunity for parole, reprieve, or appeal. This describes the finality of the sentence, not whether or not the restitution afforded by the sentence is finite. For example, if I said "your punishment is that you be thrown in prison". Then I described the length of that sentence as "life, with no possiblity for parole". This is what is meant by "everlasting punishment". Punishment is Hell... term of sentence is eternal.

-------------------------

But lets take a look also at the element of choice. Would God be just if He eternally imprisoned us? Lets say we have two prisons.... one is called Hell and the other is called Heaven. Now God tells us that the 'cells' in Heaven are much nicer than the cells in Hell, but what if some chose hell instead? Would it be just for God to send those who believed in him and wanted to go to heaven to hell? No. So how can it be just for God to send those who refuse to believe in him and want to go to hell to heaven? It would be unjust for God to give us a choice, and then go against that choice.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

Christ argues that we should not fear with wicked men plan to do – and in fact DO – to the saints. “Kill the body” since in those things they are not able to “kill” the soul. Rather fear what God plans to do – and in fact WILL do in the fiery hell to come – to “destroy BOTH body AND soul” IN fiery hell -- doing that which sinful men CAN NOT do to their fellow man. He does not merely say – “fear Him who could choose to destroy BOTH body and soul if he should ever be inclined to do such a thing” – rather He states it in the affirmative saying WHERE and when he will do it “IN fiery hell”

Destruction so complete – they will “BECOME as if they had never existed”

Obadiah
15"For the day of the LORD draws near on all the nations
As you have done, it will be done to you
Your dealings will return on your own head.
16"Because just as you drank on My holy mountain,
All the nations will drink continually.
They will drink and swallow
And become as if they had never existed.


His argument is not of the form “Do not fear what sinful man Can and DOES do to the saints rather fear what God will NEVER do to the wicked – which is to destroy BOTH body and soul (though He could do it – He will never do it so don’t worry about it)”

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

]Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, [b]do not be afraid of those who kill the body[/b] and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell[/b]; yes, I tell you, fear Him!



Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

]Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!


Rev 20:9 “Fire DEVOURED the wicked”
Rev 11:18 “Destroy those who Destroy the earth”
2Thess 1:9 The wicked pay the “penalty of eternal Destruction”

Ps 21:8-10 “devoured” – “Destroyed”


“You will make them a fiery oven in the time of your anger; The Lord will swallow them up in His wrath, fire will devour them. Their offspring you will Destroy from the earth..”

 

Note that this death takes place "IN the Presence of the LAMB and of His holy ones" Rev 14:10

It takes place "in fire and brimstone" Rev 14:10 and it is in fact called "the second death" in Rev 20 in the lake of fire.

Where both body and soul are "destroyed" just like the body in this life is "killed" (for real not for "plastic" as a relative of mine used to say)

 

Bob you sure you haven't been readin music from the 50's?
"Twist and shout."
TWIST Scripture then SHOUT like it will prove something.
Your pitiable reference to Obadiah to try and prove your thesis in this thread is...........welllll.......pitiful.

The CONTEXT is the Day of the Lord. The day when He returns to Zion to establish His Kingdom. The addressee references the NATIONS. All NATIONS will be as though they were not becaues Jesus' KINGDOM will be all encompassing. This has NOTHING to do with death or hell and/or the condition of people in hell.

But what am I telling you for? You, Claudia, and thousands like you never have had any Biblical integrity. I don'tknow HOW MANY "Prophecy Invitiations" I get in the mail from some unnamed "Authority" inviting me to a "Conference on the End Times". I attended one of the once. They NEVER identified themselves as SDA until they had you at the place!!!!

So, when it comes to SDA integrity in general, save it pal. You guys couldn't get Scripture correct if it came up and bit you on the nose.

Now.....I know I just broke a gajillion BB rules telling you this in this manner, but SOMEBODY has to have the courage to call you SDA fellers like it is. Besides, right after I left the heretical Pentecostal church I got mixed up in the SDa cult mentality you and Caludia demonstrate. I saw their errors (finally) bakc then in 1983, and they havent changed a bit. They WORSHIP the foolish teachings of that sorceress Ellen White.

Yes, hell burns forever, and so do the PEOPLE in it. Scripture has proven you to be wrong time and again but you are so hard headed/hearted that you refuse to be corrected or admonished otherwise. You ought to re-read Rev. 20 again without your E G White galsses on.

 

Jim.........100% RIGHT

 

Amazing Exegesis sir.

Obadiah?

What about Rev 14:10?? What about Matt 10:28?? You know the texts actually quoted!!

Where did Obadiah come into this?

Astounding example of Bible study, integrity and focus on the details of the text and the point of the instruction given ....

Well there is the wild claim -- but as usual no actual Bible study in it.

Next ...

In Christ,

Bob

 

Why use more Bible for BobR, he doesn't believe it any way.

 

Less Bible and "more Shiloh" is the perfect solution for those whose arguments have failed - once their shallow attempts to circumvent scripture has been fully exposed...

As for me - I will stick with the Word of God over such bible-deficient transparent antics.

In Christ,

Bob

 

man-made tradition has nothing to offer against the true Word of God on this subject ...

]Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, [b]do not be afraid of those who kill the body[/b] and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell[/b]; yes, I tell you, fear Him!



Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

]Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!


Rev 20:9 “Fire DEVOURED the wicked”
Rev 11:18 “Destroy those who Destroy the earth”
2Thess 1:9 The wicked pay the “penalty of eternal Destruction”

Ps 21:8-10 “devoured” – “Destroyed”


“You will make them a fiery oven in the time of your anger; The Lord will swallow them up in His wrath, fire will devour them. Their offspring you will Destroy from the earth..”

 

In all fairness the "bad bible" text -- "Obediah" was in fact quoted -- so it is to be expected that Jim would complain about it. Clearly he had no choice but to ignore Mat 10:28 and pretend that the mere quote of Obediah was a crime not to be tolerated.



Destruction so complete – they will “BECOME as if they had never existed”

Obadiah
15"For the day of the LORD draws near on all the nations
As you have done, it will be done to you
Your dealings will return on your own head.
16"Because just as you drank on My holy mountain,
All the nations will drink continually.
They will drink and swallow
And become as if they had never existed.


His argument is not of the form “Do not fear what sinful man Can and DOES do to the saints rather fear what God will NEVER do to the wicked – which is to destroy BOTH body and soul (though He could do it – He will never do it so don’t worry about it)”

 

You are LIKE a rabid dog. Even when beaten over the head it still keeps on its course.

THE NATIONS Bob. THE NATIONS will become....

But of course you have no answer to the clear context so you....


TWIST AND SHOUT.