Hell is finite - not Infinite torment for a sin

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Nov 28, 2013.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Christ is the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the SINS of the WHOLE World" 1John 2:2

    Is 53 "he took the punishment for us to WHOM the STROKE was due".

    Christ took the accumulated torment for all of sin - all mankind - all of time and paid it all at the cross.

    And again, Mat 18:34 seems to imply this person can eventually pay their debt, It does not say they survive the payment.

    Only that the complete debt is eventually paid in full - the law satisfied when the sinner pays the full debt demanded by the Law of God.

    This is also why Christ can sum-up and pay the FULL debt of all sin for all men in all time. The exact amount owed.

    Is 53 "He took the punishment for US to whom the STROKE was DUE"

    I know I know "stroke does not sound like eternal punishment - but rather finite".

    Sorry but that is the way it is - no Purgatory only hell and it is finite.

    Even Sodom and Gomorrah are examples of it.

    Jude 1
    , 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, Nov 28, 2013
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  2. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
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    Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Matt 18 is another place where the payment in hell appears to be finite.

    [FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]



    Rom 6:23 says the "wages of sin is death".

    Rev 20 says the second death is the punishment of the wicked.

    Luke 12:45-47 talk about payment in hell - payment for the sins committed.

    45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few.From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

    Not only is Christ right in his claim that they pay their debt in full - He is right about the fact that some pay more than others.

    Christ Himself pays our debt - and we do not have to pay that debt IF we accept the gospel - otherwise we pay our own debt of sin - in the lake of fire the second death.

    Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
     
  4. BobRyan

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    Matt 25
    46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (NASB)

    Jude 1:7

    7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

    The fire is "eternal fire" - the punishment is eternal - the wicked do not survive it - they are tormented according to their sins and then - the soul and body are "Destroyed" - Matt 10:28.

    28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


    The event is finite - the effects are eternal. The wicked do not survive it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Jordan Kurecki

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    You are adding a private interpretation to scripture. I've dealt with people like you. constantly trying to redefine everlasting.

    Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Clearly the lake of fire is a place of Torment that last forever and ever.
    You need to repent of your heresy.
     
    #5 Jordan Kurecki, Nov 28, 2013
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  6. Jordan Kurecki

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    2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    What's everlasting? it says destruction is everlasting. they are punished with being going through destruction forever. it is not everlasting results from destruction.
     
    #6 Jordan Kurecki, Nov 28, 2013
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  7. Jordan Kurecki

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    Sodom and Gomorrah's inhabitants are still being punished in hell.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    1. Isaiah 34:10 It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.
    2. Jeremiah 7:7 then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever.
    3. Jeremiah 25:5 saying, ‘Turn now everyone from his evil way and from the evil of your deeds, and dwell on the land which the Lord has given to you and your forefathers forever and ever;


    Isaiah 34

    Its streams will be turned into pitch,
    And its loose earth into brimstone,
    And its land will become burning pitch.
    10 It will not be quenched night or day;
    Its smoke will go up forever.

    From generation to generation it will be desolate;
    None will pass through it forever and ever.
    11But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
    And owl and raven will dwell in it;
    And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
    And the plumb line of emptiness.
    12 Its nobles—there is no one there
    Whom they may proclaim king—
    And all its princes will be nothing.
    13 Thorns will come up in its fortified towers,
    Nettles and thistles in its fortified cities;
    It will also be a haunt of jackals
    And an abode of ostriches.

    14 The desert creatures will meet with the wolves,
    The hairy goat also will cry to its kind;
    Yes, the night monster will settle there
     
    #8 BobRyan, Nov 28, 2013
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  9. Jordan Kurecki

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    Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
     
  10. Jordan Kurecki

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    yeah the fire wont be quenched forever because it will be consuming the souls for eternity.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Jude 1:7 (Sodom and Gomorrah - example of punishment of eternal fire) -- "Our God is a consuming fire" - eternal fire from God destroys the wicked.

    7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.


    Matt 10 -- (Both Body AND Soul - destroyed)
    28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Notice what is going on in that "forever" -- a bunch of animals live there after the fire dies out.

    Isaiah 34

    Its streams will be turned into pitch,
    And its loose earth into brimstone,
    And its land will become burning pitch.
    10 It will not be quenched night or day;
    Its smoke will go up forever.

    From generation to generation it will be desolate;
    None will pass through it forever and ever.
    11But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
    And owl and raven will dwell in it;
    And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
    And the plumb line of emptiness.
    12 Its nobles—there is no one there
    Whom they may proclaim king—
    And all its princes will be nothing.
    13 Thorns will come up in its fortified towers,
    Nettles and thistles in its fortified cities;
    It will also be a haunt of jackals
    And an abode of ostriches.

    14 The desert creatures will meet with the wolves,
    The hairy goat also will cry to its kind;
    Yes, the night monster will settle there
     
  13. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
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    What don't you understand about the phrase everlasting destruction?

    if it meant destruction that leads to an everlasting state than the phrase everlasting would be unnecessary and would only cause confusion, which we know God is not the author of.

    God destroys the soul and body in hell for eternity. its ETERNAL Destruction.
     
  14. Jordan Kurecki

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    I fail to see how this helps your position. You are a heretic teaching false doctrine and need to repent.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Ezek 28
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]12[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,
    "You had the seal of perfection,
    Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty
    .
    13
    "You were in Eden, the garden of God;
    Every precious stone was your covering:
    The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
    The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
    The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
    And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
    Was in you.
    On the day that you were created
    They were prepared.
    14
    "You were the anointed cherub who covers,
    And I placed you there.
    You were on the holy mountain of God;
    You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.

    15
    "You were blameless in your ways
    From the day you were created
    Until unrighteousness was found in you.
    [/FONT]


    16 “By the abundance of your trade
    You were internally filled with violence,
    And you sinned;
    Therefore I have cast you as profane
    From the mountain of God.

    And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
    From the midst of the stones of fire.
    17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
    You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
    I cast you to the ground;
    I put you before kings,
    That they may see you.
    18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
    In the unrighteousness of your trade
    You profaned your sanctuaries.
    Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
    It has consumed you,
    And I have turned you to ashes on the earth

    In the eyes of all who see you.
    19 “All who know you among the peoples
    Are appalled at you;
    You have become terrified
    And you will cease to be forever.”’”
     
  16. Jordan Kurecki

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    the proper translation is.Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

    Never shalt thou be a terror is a potential interpretation. whatever bible you are quoting from is not even a good or proper translation, I will think about this more though and see what i think. regardless though it still doesn't change the verses I've already quoted that clearly teach eternal punishment.
     
    #16 Jordan Kurecki, Nov 28, 2013
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  17. BobRyan

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    So then you are hanging your hat on the idea that the NASB is too flawed to trust.

    Good luck with that.

    Ezek 28:19

    NASB
    “All who know you among the peoples
    Are appalled at you;
    You have become terrified
    And you will cease to be forever.”’”

    KJV "19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

    NKJV "All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
    You have become a horror,
    And shall be no more forever.”’”"

    Geneva
    19 All they that know thee among the people, shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be anymore.

    Holman
    19 All those who know you among the nations
    are appalled at you.
    You have become an object of horror
    and will never exist again.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Jordan Kurecki

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    More than that. Just because I dont quite understand this one verse and what it is saying does not negate the other scripture I have posted I was giving one potential interpretation. I reject the NKJV and the Holman, The Geneva reading stilll fits the possible interpretation I gave. whatever the interpretation is, it must fit with the rest of scripture, your implications of what you think it means does not fit with the rest of scripture.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    I am simply pointing out that even Satan himself is not going to be around forever.

    Matt 25 says hell is prepared for burning Satan and his angels.

    Matt 10:28 says both the body AND the soul of the wicked are "destroyed in fiery hell".

    Jude 7 says Soddom and Gomorrah are examples of undergoing the punishment of "Eternal fire".

    Luke 12:45-47 says that some suffer more than others in that fiery hell.

    Matt 18 says that wicked pay their debt in full in the judgment/hell .

    And Christ accumulates all the debt - all the torment and suffering owed for each sin for each human in all of time - and pays for all of it on the cross. 1John 2:2 NIV.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Winman

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    Yes, and the beast and false prophet were thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 19:20, yet in Rev 20:10 they are still there. This is a thousand years later.

    Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    These men were cast alive into the lake of fire;

    After this we see Satan is bound for one thousand years;

    Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    Only after the thousand years is Satan released, but then he too is cast in the lake of fire. But guess what? The beast and false prophet are STILL THERE.

    Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    So, after one thousand years we see the beast and false prophet are still in the lake of fire, they have not been destroyed.
     

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