Hell is:

Christ represented mankind before the power of unrighteousness at the cross.

Just like Adam and satan
adam lost, mankind lost.

Just like david and goliath.
david won. israel won.

Just like Christ and satan
Christ won. mankind won.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam "all" die, even so in Christ shall "all" be made alive.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

did you catch the "firstfruit" part?
that is the elect and Christ together.
(the entire body and head..the firstfruit)

lets see, and then..they that are his at his coming. whos left? ..they that are his?

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

what is his at his coming? all things.

he's just coming back to reclaim what was originally his to begin with..

Me2

 

Christ died for all, but instead of some. All is not all inclusive. The atonement was sufficient for all, but limited to the elect of God. His choice. Not ALL Israel is Israel!

Cheers,

Jim

 

then the assumptions can be made that man has "free will" over the infinite sovereignty of God to the end result that:
God in his omniscience created billions of souls He knew that HE personally would be damning towards a torturous eternal outcome?

sorry, but thats the descriptions of the god that is only created in the imaginations of mans carnal mind.

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

I dont think the idea of any God creating billions of mindless creatures destined for an eternal doom would be attributed to any likeness of being called uncorruptable. other than the one created within the mind of the carnal mindset.

(which is the same carnal mind that is cursed from knowing the truth about Gods love for his entire creation.)

hense we have the carnal man and his idea of the creation of his "god" with his ideas of hell.
(could this "god" be....satan?)

(who is the god of this world? of this "flesh"?)

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the "creature" more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen

what truth?. that God is love?. did he create mankind to love?. or to torment?.

 

Me2,

This time I agree with much of what you have said.

Satan is the 'god of this world.' [I Cor. 2:14; Matthew 13:15-16; & Act 7:51] There are strong verses than these; I cannot think of them at this time.

Children of the evil one {I John 2:22-23a,b & I John 3:8}

Children of God [I John 3:2 & I John 3:9]

 

The truth of God is the truth of who He is. He is a God of love, mercy, judgment, justice, all in equal representation. There is no more love than wrath, no more mercy than justice. He shows his mercy and love through offering salvation through Jesus Christ, but his wrath must remain on sin and those who are unrepentant.

He created man to glorify Him and that will happen as even the lost will acknowledge him one day, though it will be too late for them at that point. The passage you quote from here shows that there are people who deliberately refuse to acknowledge God. God will not force them to be with Him. If they do not want God now, they will not want Him later. They will get exactly what they want - no God, no mercy, no grace, no eternal presence of Christ.

I think it was C S Lewis who said (and maybe he was quoting someone else?): There are 2 kinds of people. Those who say to God, Thy will be done. And those who say, My will be done.

 

Marcia,

I agree with the two kinds of spirits as I also agree that God must express justice on the cursed carnal spirit of mankind.

Does mankind with his carnal spirit enter into spiritual death? all mankind must enter into spiritual death.

Does mankind exit from death with their carnal spirit? no. all carnal spirits remain in a state of spirit "death".

it is mans souls that are attached to the resurrected spirit of Christ. for this is the one and only spirit that will be resurrected.

I agree fully that God comes to destroy unrighteousness. this is the complete destruction of the carnal spirit, yet it is the souls of man that God loves. it is the souls of mankind that God will place his sons spirit within. It is the souls of men that Jesus christ comes to collect as he has completely paid their sin debt.

mans carnal spirit is utterly destroyed.

not the soul of the man.

God loves man.
afterall every man will have been created in Gods image.
every soul will have been placed into the image of Christ

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


Me2

 

Me2, there is no Biblical support for what you are saying. It goes against the clear teaching that there will be those suffering in the lake of fire.

You are dividing a "carnal spirit" from "a resurrected soul" which is not Biblical. First of all, soul and spirit are often interchangeable in the Bible.

Secondly, to say a person's carnal spirit is damned but their soul is somehow resurrected with Christ is making a distinction and teaching not found in the Bible. When God says that those who reject Him are put in the lake of fire, he is not just talking about their spirit, but about the whole person, period.

Why should people who reject Christ be with him after death? They don't want him.

 

Marcia,

without the resurrected spirit of Christ within man today. he has no proof of being raised from a state of being corruptable to uncorruptable is even possible.

which concludes that mans souls is detached from his carnal spirit in death.
attached to the spirit of Christ and resurrected uncorruptable.

1Co 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

the soul is still "carnal" marcia. or shall we say it has carnal tendencies and carnal memories. next begins the renewing of the mind (soul).

If any creature rejects Gods calling.
It is due to the power of God calling this person to represent one being reprobate against truth.
they are still fulfilling the will of God.

Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

this makes no sense seeing that those who exist eternally must have an eternal spirit and body.
there is only one body and spirit that exists eternally.
and that is the spirit and body of christ.

if one is not resurrected. they are still in spiritual death. those in hell do not enter into spiritual death for they are lawless. they resist the law from delivering their carnal spirit into spiritual death and judgement.

free will is an illusion. or else how did God know you would even be physically born?
he preplanned every activity up to your conception.
that the sovereignty of God. not mans free will

even jesus said it himself. if the father gives whomever to Jesus. Jesus would save them.
its comes down to a simple matter of when the father gives every mans soul to Jesus.
some will be given to the son in this age.
the rest will be given to the son in the next age.

again. its not a matter of free will of man. its a matter of when the calling of the father towards the soul of man occurs. and when the individuals soul is given to the son to resurrect.

Me2

 

If Hell is not eternal, and punishment not everlasting, how can we believe that blessings and rewards are eternal? The logic of universalism and second chance fails when the whole tenor of scripture is considered.

As I have repeated, one scripture does not a doctrine make, Those scriptures which, on the surface, seem to indicate a form of annihilation, must be understood in context and in the light of the whole of scripture.

In Revelation, there are some who are cast alive into the Lake of Fire. Just how long does this Lake of Fire endure? Is it until man turns himself about through his so-called free will? If the Lake of Fire is not eternal punishment, at God's pleasure, and in keeping with His entire attributes, including holiness, justice, sovereignty and good order, why on earth are some cast alive into that Lake of Fire?

The whole of scripture does not support annihilation nor cessation of punishment for wilful sins. In fact, it is rather clear in calling it eternal punishment. Let God be true, and every man a liar, and not the other way around. God cannot lie by His very nature.

There are rules of interpretation called hermeneutics. If these rules are not followed, one is free to reach your conclusions. In fact, one is free to reach any conclusion he wishes.

Cheers,

Jim

 

In Jude we are told that the cities Soddom and Gommorah were destroyed with eternal fire. Eternal is the attribute given because the source is God - not natural source. We can "still" believe in "eternal life" because that life is from God - and is eternal. Though some might argue this text in Jude - points to the cities as proof we can not have eternal life.

In Matt 10 Christ said "BOTH body and soul are DESTROYED" in hell fire. We can believe that BOTH are destroyed there - really.

Rev 14 says that the entire event takes place "IN the presence of the Lamb and of His holy ones" - we can believe it. We will all be there for it - it will take place IN our presence.

Scripture describes those in hell and the lake of fire as both "consumed" and "destroyed" following that time of torment.

Suppose you had the "SAME" kinds of ending statements for "eternal life" as you propose? Suppose God had said "and then those who receive eternal life will end, will die, will be consumed" -- then I would agree with your claim that "accepting" these "ending statements" about those in the lake of fire and those with eternal life - would place an END on that event.

But it is not what scripture says. The equivocation you are making will not work.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Me2

Man has NO "free will" over the infinite sovereinty of God. There is no potential in man, physical, mental or spiritual, that was not given him by God. IMHO, it is to the infinite wisdom and glory of God that He, and He alone, could create separate beings that He endowed with the capacity to make moral choices, within the framework of His omnipotence. This is what the "image" of God is all about.

God created billions of separate souls because of His love and for His glory. He has not consigned any to eternal damnation. But, each man from Adam onward, has freely chosen the wrong path (ie turned away from God). God has allowed that each man has the option of choosing his eternal fate. Of course God knows that some would reject Him. He is not a man that this rejection should diminish his unfailing love. He is glorified in His infinite righteousness. This is true love.

If God is love, and He is, then the most profound choise man can make is whether he returns this love to his Creator. Not just love as a mental assertion, but a love that involves his praise, obedience and realization of his total dependence as a creature. Fallen man can't measure up to God's standard on his own. To be found in the perfect image of Jesus is man's only hope. Praise the Lord!

Wow! I didn't start out to write all that...but I feel better.

In Christ
Michael

 

Michael52,

Im glad but please be careful; feeling are fleeting whenever you ponder about this just a little longer.

Before the foundation of the world, well lets say in Gods perfection, he creates man.
from beginning to ending.

a perfect creation. complete. ah jesus. the first and last. wow!


but then how does each and every human choose correctly?
because God orchestrated billions of lives one second, one thought, one activity at a time.

imagine God creating billions of individuals with interractive lives and conversations and choices and activites!!!

How do you think God Got from adam to you being Born.
Thats a lot of "correct" choices. isnt it?

if you believe you were "selected" from the foundation of the world to be created and to be given Gods sons spirit within you.

then God chose this to occur or man had to chose correctly for God to know your state.

can you chance it up to human beings choosing and God not "knowing" at all those choices between adam and your conception.
and saying well, Michael, will be my adopted son too. lets se, 6000 years in adams future...

come on. rational thinking can only point to God being in sovereign control every second. even every thought. every action.
from adams creation through every person choices up to you being on terra firma and long after your gone. till the last human is created.

and were not even talking about the next age.

the big fight between good and evil...
and God will defeat all those evil foes..
(do you think he's got this all planned out without fail?) you bet!. Jesus is Lord!

this is God..he's perfect. everything he does he does completely, and perfectly. little man is simply observing this creation "unfold" in mans linear time.

and God figured this all out perfectly before he created into this physical world the first molecule and first second appeared in this universe. thats worth a big wow!.

Me2

 

Christ makes it plain in Matt 7 -- NOT ALL will be save, not ALL will receive life eternal. He makes the same point in Romans 2.

These are long - detailed explanations showing NO HOPE at ALL for those who go to hell and showing that only the FEW are in fact saved.

There are no "wicked pay their debt and then go to heaven" scenarios in all of scripture.

Period.

In Christ,

Bob

 

God "Soevereignly CHOSE" a free will system - and Lucifer became Satan - while 2/3 of the Angels remained loyal.

God "sovereignly CHOSE" a free will system on earth even though it meant failure could happen -- even though He KNEW that Adam would sin - taking all mankind with him.

God "sovereignly CHOSE" to enable free will on earth even though it meant that the "FEW" go through the narrow gate while the MANY go through the wide gate to destruction.

God sovereignly CHOSE.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Me2

Yeah, I got carried away. I had some other things to do and ran out of time. I had intended to connect what I wrote to the topic of this thread or at least to the recent discussion on universalism. I failed.

Anyway, since you responded, I'll have another try at it.

I understand what you are saying. Certainly, God is irrestibly pervading every activity of man constantly. Our life and all functions are upheld or terminated at his disctretion. Like gravity, we can struggle against it, but we cannot escape its effects on us. However, if He orchestrates every thought and activity, then does this mean that He is orchestrating our sinful thoughts and activities. Surely, you don't believe this?

Maybe we can blame this on Satan. Certainly Satan has a part in it. Is Satan's every thought and activity being orchestarted by God? He is, after all, a created being like us. As you point out, if we logically go back up the chain, God has ultimate responsibility or does He? I say He has the responsibility for creating and sustaining His creatures. His creatures have the responsibility for sin, which in the final analysis is their willfull turning from their Creator.

Man (and Satan) are more than "innocent" bystanders. In fact, to the extent that we find imperfections, it is man (and Satan) that has brought these about, not God. Indeed, we can only think of and experience the world in "linear time". Thats why we must be careful that we don't bring our own limited view into explaining God's activities. Thats why we study the Bible. If we don't understand it all, at least we can read what God says about it.

The Bible (IMHO) seems to say that God created this universe so that the His sentient creatures could have a platform from which to praise, worship and glorify their Creator (or not). Once created, they are from that point everlasting beings. What will God do with His creatures who refuse him? He can end their mortal life. This is the eventual fate of all. Yet, their spirits remain.
Solution:

Hell - The eternal abode of those spirits who refused God in their mortal life. Total separation from God for eternity.

Heaven - The eternal abode of those spirits who turned to God in their mortal life. In God's Divine presence forever.

I'm sure my analysis is full of "theological" holes. But its my theory and I'm sticking to it (for now, or until God helps me to know better). I'm just glad Jesus saved me in my ignorance!

In Christ

Michael

[ June 18, 2004, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Michael52 ]

 

There is no text referring to "immortal man" or "immortal soul". But we do find the Bible speaking of "mortal man who can not keep his soul alive" in the Psalms.

But the point is that - we never find "hope" for those in hell or in the lake of fire. It is never a place of hope or a place of final peace and comfort. It is never picture as "another way into heaven".

The fire and torment of the lake of fire is always presented as "bad" never "a cleansing" or even an "inconvenient way to get to heaven" - as if this is really just purgatory.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The hope of mortal human beings, as Christians, is that we will at our resurrection, [I Thess. 4:17] ' . . . put on immortality' and we will remain forever the children of God in Heaven. [I Corinthians 15:53-54]

 

Indeed - Paul says in Phil 3 that he seeks to "attain to that resurrection". There is never a "hope" held out to the one who goes to hell - the lake of fire - instead of "attaining to the resurrection of the righteous".

There is no text saying that the wicked "put on immortality" as Ray points out - it is only for the saints.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I had someone point out to me that in Revelation the idea of the "Second Chance" is offered. But when I pointed out that the "smoke of their torment riseth up forever" he got upset with me, and said "I don't care what you or any Bible says, it won't convince me any different." Turns out his was a protectionist viewpoint, brought on by the suicide of a brother and subsequent comment by someone about it being a one-way ticket to hell. I wonder sometimes how many off-center beliefs are directly or indirectly a protection like this one was.

The Worm

 

More to the point - bias is a hard thing to ditch when it comes to the Word of God. People have many reasons "other than what the Bible says" for reinventing the text. (see the thread on evolution for examples of frank confessions in that regard).

In Christ,

Bob