HELP I'm confused

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Bob Colgan, Jul 29, 2004.

  1. Bob Colgan

    Bob Colgan
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    I'll do my best to ask this question as clear as possible. I'm confused on one point. Is every step of man dictated by God both saved and unsaved I mean is what I'll do tomorrow pre-ordaned by God. if I will walk faithfully are not, I don't believe this is what Reformed teaches is it? I'm told to put on the armor of God to study His Word so that I won't fall into sin. Another example. is this upcoming election allready determined won't the prayers of Gods people possibley touch His heart and He will possibley change His mind with His ultimate will still prevailing? Any help I would appreciate.

    Bob
     
  2. npetreley

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    Yes, everything is foreknown and foreordained by God, either by permission or direction (everything happens exactly as God permits and directs).

    But that doesn't mean you don't make decisions of your own will. It all comes down to the various ways God works out His will. The Bible gives examples where God actually manipulates the thoughts and desires of people. But in other cases, God uses events to work out His will (such as causing your car to break down so you'll be exactly where He wants you to be instead of where you wanted to be). And in still other cases, God permits or even increases evil deeds that God will turn around and use to bring about His good purpose (see the story of Joseph).

    As for the many exhortations in the Bible to believers - God uses them to encourage His people, but He also knows exactly how we will respond. Some he allows to do poorly for whatever reason seems good to Him (perhaps He allowed the Corinthians to be disrespectful of the Lord's supper and made many of them sick and fall asleep as an example to the rest of us). Others, He lifts up and uses to bear great fruit. But while we can count the evil we do to ourselves, though God may permit it, nothing we do that is good comes from anywhere else but Him.

    So we're not robots - we have our own will. But we do nothing that is not foreknown, and we do nothing that is not permitted or directed by God. Not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will.
     
  3. Ray Berrian

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    The Lord has always known who will ultimately be saved. The Bible calls this 'foreknowledge' {Romans 8:29; I Peter 1:2}

    In Peter's sermon he spoke of Almighty God knowing beforehand/foreknowledge that Jesus would die on the Cross for our sins. [Acts 2:23]

    Our life-time is when we either decide to receive His message or to reject the truth as to His atoning death for us. On this basis He predestines us to an eternity with Himself. [Romans 8:29-30]

    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  4. Bob Colgan

    Bob Colgan
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    I appreciate both your answers are you a Calvinist/Reformed? I am this is just one topic that has bothered me. I do believe that nothing happens without His permission are by His ordaining that event. Do you believe example that God will allow his people to influence His decision on who (example) will become president can the prayers of His people cause Him to change His mind and He will still of course cause all things to go the way He want's.
    Let's say that I decide to stop praying reading my Bible Gods will is for His saints to walk holy and seperate of this world correct? But since I decided to go the way I wanted He will allow me to stumble back slide. Even if His will is that I become obediant to Him.
    I know this is not written very clearly hard to but into words.

    Thanks Bob
     
  5. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    And since God's knowledge is perfect and infallible, millions of people are born into the world without having any chance to be saved.

    Actually, it says that it was his "predetermined plan" ... in other words, God's predetermined that Christ be murdered.

    Have you found a verse yet where predestination or election is said to be the result of belief??? As I recall, when you quit posting here, you left that question on the table. YOu have yet to show even one verse that supports your belief that predestination or election is the result fo belief.
     
  6. npetreley

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    That depends. My answers are Calvinist, I think - they align pretty much with what Luther believed and wrote. There are a lot of churches that count themselves as "Reformed" which lie between Arminianism and Pelagianism, though. In fact, in my personal experience, they've been in the majority. For a while there, I came to equate the Baptist church with Pelagianism, but I've been pleased to find out it's not quite that universal.
     
  7. Bob Colgan

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    Larry,
    I'm not trying to prove anything I'm just asking a questions. So if you can give some advice great if not well.
    Bob
     
  8. Monergist

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    Bob, I'll get this out of the way first--I consider myself to be in the Reformed camp, although of course I can't speak for others who are.

    Back to your question. First of all, we've got to understand that God does not change His mind, not ever, not under any circumstances. God perfectly knows the future because He ordained whatsoever comes to pass. Being Reformed, I believe that the Westminster Confession of Faith gets it right. Rather than elaborate, I'm posting Chapter 3 here for you. I think that if you will read it carefully you will find your questions answered.

     
  9. Skandelon

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    Yes, everything is foreknown and foreordained by God, either by permission or direction (everything happens exactly as God permits and directs).

    But that doesn't mean you don't make decisions of your own will. It all comes down to the various ways God works out His will. The Bible gives examples where God actually manipulates the thoughts and desires of people. But in other cases, God uses events to work out His will (such as causing your car to break down so you'll be exactly where He wants you to be instead of where you wanted to be). And in still other cases, God permits or even increases evil deeds that God will turn around and use to bring about His good purpose (see the story of Joseph).

    As for the many exhortations in the Bible to believers - God uses them to encourage His people, but He also knows exactly how we will respond. Some he allows to do poorly for whatever reason seems good to Him (perhaps He allowed the Corinthians to be disrespectful of the Lord's supper and made many of them sick and fall asleep as an example to the rest of us). Others, He lifts up and uses to bear great fruit. But while we can count the evil we do to ourselves, though God may permit it, nothing we do that is good comes from anywhere else but Him.

    So we're not robots - we have our own will. But we do nothing that is not foreknown, and we do nothing that is not permitted or directed by God. Not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Amazingly enough I agree with Nick on this one. :eek:

    Yet, we are on different ends of the spectrum in regard to our soteriology. Go figure. :confused:
     
  10. BobRyan

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    1. God knows all - past present and future.
    2. HE knew the SAME thing about every thing Adam would do, and Christ would do.
    3. BOTH Adam and Christ had FREE will.
    4. God has sovereignly enabled YOU to have free will as well.

    5. You are not God - you can not out-think God. So the fact that you can not work out points 1-3 in your own mind - simply proves you are not God. Nothing more.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Skandelon

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    Well put Bob! [​IMG]
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Thanks Skandelon.

    I find that Calvinist sometimes make the point that if they can not figure out how to be God - then neither can God.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Skandelon

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I've never thought of it that way before but I think you may have something there. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  14. Ray Berrian

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    Every human being whether sinner or saint has an unlimited free will. We can do anything that we desire to do, even good or evil. Nevertheless, God will judge us for all of our deeds done in this life.

    Although we have an unlimited free will, all of our decisions are known to God in eternity past, because He is the Divine Almighty God.
     
  15. UMP

    UMP
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    Ray Berrian writes:
    "We can do anything that we desire to do,"

    Can you levitate ? I desire to float around my office this afternoon. Tell me how.
     
  16. npetreley

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    Good to hear it, Ray! Now - do you desire to love God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and all your strength? Then do it, and when you prove to yourself you can do it 100% of the time without fail of your own free will, get back to me. I don't even need any evidence - I'll take your word for it.
     
  17. Bob Colgan

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    The more I learn and study on this topic the more I start to lean toward Arminianism.

    Thanks for the feed back
    Bob
     
  18. pinoybaptist

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    Easy to throw insults, ain't it, Bob ? Especially when you don't really care which is true of which position because you don't believe in the basic tenet of either side:

    That salvation is by grace thru faith, not of works (in other words, not of the law, which you as a Seventh Day Adventist believe).
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Pinoybaptist -- I get the distinct sense that you want to discuss the Arminian positions of Adventists -- or is this just a side line, or are you hoping I will correct you?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. pinoybaptist

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    No. I have enough resources at my disposal to know what your doctrines are.

    Let me ask you something.

    You say you have a right to be here because you, like the Arminians, believe that a person is saved by grace and grace alone, apart from works of the Law.

    What happens if a person says he is saved by grace because he 'received' Christ as personal savior, but refuses the Sabbath as you Adventists espouse it ? Is he saved ?

    Second question, what happens if a person says he is a believer in Christ, but, the faith in Christ he says he has, is not 'apparent' in the way he lives, in other words, there is very little (in contrast to none at all) evidence of a gracious life in him. He smokes, takes an occassional drink, likes movies, misses church, more often than not sleeps through most of the sermon when he goes to church, knows very little Scripture, parties, eats junk food, drinks sodas, coffee, and all those other stuff short of fornication, murder, robbery, and the heavier ones. Do you believe this person is indeed a Christian ?

    Will a Christian stand before the Creator on judgment day ? If so, why ? If not, why not ?
     

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