Help, I'm Drowning!

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Mark R, Jul 11, 2003.

  1. Mark R

    Mark R
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    I've been having a rather heated and lengthy correspondence with a Church of Christ man about believer's baptism. A few verses that he keeps throwing at me are Mk.1:4, Lk.3:3, Acts 2:38, 22:16. I need resources, your advice, interpretations etc. Anything you could help with is greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Watchman

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    Glad to help, if I can, a fellow Kansan.
    Mixing works with grace is a false gospel. Is baptism a work? It is certainly something you do. I, myself, have little patience with those who add to the finished work of the Lord Jesus. Here are two good sources here on the web:
    www.carm.org/questions/baptnec.htm
    www.biblebelievers.net/FalseTeaching/kjcfalse.htm
    There is at least one reference where people in the book of Acts received the Holy Spirit as they were listening to the Gospel. Isn't that indicative of salvation? Also, Paul said that he was not sent to baptize. That would be nonsense if baptism was essential.
    The time may come though when you must let people go. If they have a mind set that, "I'm going to believe what I'm going to believe and don't bother me with the facts," it is perhaps time to realize they are dogs and swine. Those are harsh words, but they are from the Lord Jesus Himself.
     
  3. Mark R

    Mark R
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    Thanks Watchman - Talking to a staunch Campbellite is a lot like hitting your thumb with a hammer - it feels good when you stop. Good websites, again thanx.
     
  4. Jailminister

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    Mark R. I use these verses also:

    Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism ,

    Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

    My question is "Do you want water baptism or baptism of the Holy Spirit" They have a hard time answering that.

    Also, this little phrase and in you all proves that the Holy Spirit is from the South. [​IMG]
     
  5. RaptureReady

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    Some more sites
    http://www.biblebelievers.com/Davis1.html

    One thing about Acts 2:38, they did not ask to be saved, they were already saved. What I mean is they did not ask to be saved because they just heard Peter preach the word of God and they then believed on Jesus Christ and they then realized that they had just murdered their Lord and Saviour. So then, they asked, "...Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter says, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..." If you just realized that you murdered your saviour without knowledge, you would ask, "what shall we do?"
     
  6. gb93433

    gb93433
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    They believe that one must be baptized to be saved, If so then the thief on the cross never went to heaven. In the early church they did not separate baptism from salvation like we do.

    Baptism was the public proof. If someone was baptized and named Christ as their Lord it meant that the emperor who was their lord was renounced by naming Christ as their Lord and the emperor could have had them executed. Now if you knew you could be executed for being baptized and naming Christ as your Lord would you be a Christian? I would certainly think so. I can't imagine any easy believeism in that.
     
  7. Baptist Believer

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    Just wanted to agree with HomeBound and add to what he said…

    Often people who believe that baptism is required for salvation will use Acts 2:38. They claim that the crowds are asking Peter what should they do to be saved – but they are not. They are merely asking “what shall we do?”

    If we want a biblical response to the question “What must I do to be saved?”, we can go to Acts 16 and read the story of the jailer at Philippi:

    Acts 16:29-32

    29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
    30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

    After the jailer and his family cleaned and dressed the wounds of Paul and Silas, they went to be baptized as a first act of obedience to Christ – which is certainly important – but it is not essential to salvation.


    A word of caution – it is possible to win a theological argument, but it is difficult to change someone’s mind. If you are having a heated argument you need to consider if you might be hardening someone to the truth in your zeal to win an argument. Please be careful and humble as you talk to this person. If you find you have been arrogant or hostile during your discussion, you may need to apologize in order to be a consistent witness for Christ. On the other hand, change is difficult and when deeply held beliefs are challenged, people tend to get rather heated in their discussions. Just make sure that you are without blame. [​IMG]
     
  8. Mark R

    Mark R
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    Thanks people - Every time I have brought up the thief on the cross, woman at the well etc. I hear this - they were saved under the Old Covenant. Based on Hebrews "death of the testator" passage. You've been helpful, any thoughts on Acts 22:16? "arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
     
  9. Sola-Scriptura

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    Jailminister said:
    Psalm 48:
    Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised
    In the city of our God,
    In His holy mountain.
    2Beautiful in elevation,
    The joy of the whole earth,
    Is Mount Zion
    on the sides of the north,
    The city of the great King.
    Oh yeah!!!! I guess this verse proves that the New Jerusalem is in Canada. [​IMG]
     
  10. John Wells

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    Man, I get to the end thinking "this is the first post I've seen where everyone is in one accord" and then you go and open up dissention! :D But I'm not going to argue the New Jerusalem is in Durham! :eek:
     
  11. Sola-Scriptura

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    Hey John, after the last couple days of that type of activity on the GOD HATES ALL THE WORKERS OF INIQUITY thread, I could use a little levity and frivolity. [​IMG]
     
  12. Baptist Believer

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    You better watch that attitude mister!

    If your ideas threaten my prejudices, I'm gonna have to call you "anti-Christ"! :eek: [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  13. Sola-Scriptura

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    I may have been called worse on the afore mentioned thread. :D
     
  14. Mark R

    Mark R
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