Help me with your definition of "cult"

Dkh,
Do you think everyone that disagrees with you is in a cult?

 

Handbook of Today's Religions, Josh McDowell

CARM

No, Atestring, I don't believe that everyone that disagrees with me is in a cult. I believe strongly that UPC or Oneness are CULTS, and very dangerous cults that send innocent people to Hell every day with a false gospel. The definition of a cult (given above), and the beliefs of UPC (given above) fit hand in glove. Their doctrines are unorthodox. They preach a false gospel. And they believe that they are the only ones that will go to heaven.
They are a cult.
DHK

 

DKHH
What is your criteria for determining what is orhtodox?
Also, please list a group that disagrees with you that you do not consider to be a cult.

 

Handbook of Today's Religions, Josh McDowell

CARM

No, Atestring, I don't believe that everyone that disagrees with me is in a cult. I believe strongly that UPC or Oneness are CULTS, and very dangerous cults that send innocent people to Hell every day with a false gospel. The definition of a cult (given above), and the beliefs of UPC (given above) fit hand in glove. Their doctrines are unorthodox. They preach a false gospel. And they believe that they are the only ones that will go to heaven.
They are a cult.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Walter Martin and Josh Macdowell are mere humans and they are not the authority on cults.
I have respect for Josh Macdowell but i realize as you should that books are not 100% accurate nor are they written to be . They are written to sell. Money talks in the Christian Bookstores.
I am not oneness and I may disagree with them on some things and agree with them on other things but I will not call them a cult just because of the list that you mentioned.
The list takes issue with certain things but does not listen to their scriptural basis for believing such things.
I challenge you to get on a oneness website (since you obviously live your life on the internet)and ask them why they believe what they believe. You may find that they are not 100% wrong. They did not wake up one morning and say, " I think I will make DKH mad."
There are lots of things that they preach that we could all learn from and that we would agree on.
They love Jesus. They love to procaim the power of the name of Jesus as the church in The Book of Acts did.
You may find out that you don't know everything about them.
BTW ( because of your post) you seem to be threatened by Pentecostals and Charismatics. Are they strong in Canada. Is your church loosing members to them. There must be a reason for the annomosity that you have to them.
YOu may be right on some issues just as we all are but you are as human as the rest of us and therefore you could be wrong on certain issues as could I.

 

Although, it might be a stretch, I would add the United Pentecostal Church (UPC) as a cult or near-cult. I attended that church for nearly 2 years, although was never a member. They are extremely legalistic and seem to believe that anyone not in the UPC are lost. They are a "oneness" or "Jesus Only" church, which is what many describe as the one reason they are a cult. However, their thinking that only UPC people are saved is what makes it seem cultish to me. Not just the fact that they believe that TV's are evil, that women should not wear slacks, makeup or jewelry. While I attended there, I never heard any sermons about their clothing standards, but I heard many insinuations that other denominations were lost. Bottom line--if you did not pray in tongue, you were not considered really "saved". I left because of that single distorted belief. Sad because I loved the people but couldn't go along with their interpretations of scripture.

 

Orthodox doctrine centers mainly around the doctrines of soteriology and Christology, though there may be others inluded such as Bibliology.
Who is Jesus Christ? If Jesus Christ is not God, then He is not the God of the Bible. He is the second person of the triune Godhead, God incarnate, died, buried and risen the third day according to the Scriptures, and coming again. Oneness denies that He is God. They deny His deity. They deny this by denying the trinity. If Christ is not the Second Person of the triune Godhead then He is not the God of the Bible. This is one of the most orthodox doctrines of the Bible. Who is Jesus Christ?

Soteriology: What is salvation. How is one saved. Eph.2:8,9 teaches that we are saved by grace through faith. We are not saved through works. The Scriptures are very clear on this point. If any person teachees that we are saved by any work other than faith in the shed blood of Christ and His atoning work on the cross, they are heretical. Oneness requre baptism for salvation. That is a work. Oneness require tongues for salvation. That is a work. They have a works salvation. They are working their way to heaven taking away from the doctrine of justification by faith. This is not orthodox doctrine; it is heresy. They fail to understand what salvation is. Salvation does not center around works and experiences. It centers around the gospel and one's belief in it. Oneness does not believe in that simple message. They believe in another gospel, and therefore Paul calls them accursed (Gal. 1).

Presbyterians hold to orthodox belief though we may disagree with them in many things. Many of the old time Presbyterians wrote most of the commentaries that we use today.

There are various kinds of Methodists today: some conservative; some liberal. The more conservative Methodists are orthodox preaching the gospel.

The Alliance is evangelical and orthodox; likewise the Plymouth Brethren.

There is the occasional Anglican church that may be considered orthodox. You may enquire from Jim1999 about this.

There are the more conservative Lutheran churches that are orthodox churhes that are orthodox in their doctrine.

There are others. We disagree in many things. But their doctring concerning Christ and salvation is orthodox. Not one of the above listed denominations would ever consider themselves as the only denomination or sect to be the only ones to enter Heaven as the Oneness believe.

Oneness fits all the marks of a cult. In no way does it believe in orthodox doctrine.
DHK

 

Atestring, are you an expert on cults? Why do you call into question Josh McDowell and Walter Martin's research? What have you done in the field of researching the cults? I have used not only their materials but others as well in my teaching of cults in the college I am associated with. I find that their material is quite adequate.
Who are you to question motives? Josh McDowell has traveled this world debating Muslim scholars and others as to the validity of their faith compared to Christianity. This brings no profit to him. It is an evangelical tool to get the gospel out to many who otherwise would never hear the gospel. You have a very cynical attitude.

You will not call Oneness a cult simply out of your own sentimentality and prejudice even though they claim to be the only ones that are going to Heaven. Who is the one that is biased here?

You challenge me to get on a Oneness website and learn from them. Do I have to stick my head in a garbage pail to learn that it is dirty. By their fruits ye shall know them, the Bible says. They have said their piece on this board. That is good enough for me. If you want a good idea of what they have both believed and practiced, and the results thereof, then I suggest that you send an email to GrannyGumbo, a present member of BB, who has already lost a son to this devastating cult. She testifies that where she lives the Oneness cult is all over her area, and she would like a missionary to come just to reach the Oneness people in that area. The influence of that cult has been devastating. Write her, and find out the details.

You say that they love to proclaim the name of Jesus just as they did in the Book of Acts. Atestring challenge them to show you the message of salvation without using the Book of Acts. They cannot do it. That is a serious flaw in their theology. Without the Book of Acts they are totally lost. There is no Romans Road, no John 3:16; no other way to Heaven but through the Book of Acts. That in itself is a warning sign that something is terribly wrong.

I am not wrong on the Oneness Pentecostal. I have posted what they believe. How can you miss it? Read it again. I gave you a link from where their beliefs came from. It was well researched. Oneness churches themselves will admit to these beliefs. Ask them. They are heretical. Read 2John 9-11

2 John 1:9-11 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

The doctrine of Christ in verse 9 refers to the deity of Christ, who Christ is, the trinity, etc.
The Bible says that these people have not God.
Verse 10 commands you not to let them into your house, and not even to say good-by to them. (God speed is the old English term for our modern day expression of good-bye.)
Verse 11 teaches us that if you do wish him good bye (God-be-with-ye or Good-bye) then you yourself have become partakers of their evil deeds.
DHK

 

DKH I do not claim to be an expert on cults but I also do not acknowledge you as an expert either.
On the issue of Oneness Pentecostals which I am not one but do not believe they are a cult ,
I challenge you to study a little more
check out: http://www.mikeblume.com/culthunt.htm

 

Atestring, are you an expert on cults? Why do you call into question Josh McDowell and Walter Martin's research? What have you done in the field of researching the cults? I have used not only their materials but others as well in my teaching of cults in the college I am associated with. I find that their material is quite adequate.
Who are you to question motives? Josh McDowell has traveled this world debating Muslim scholars and others as to the validity of their faith compared to Christianity. This brings no profit to him. It is an evangelical tool to get the gospel out to many who otherwise would never hear the gospel. You have a very cynical attitude.

You will not call Oneness a cult simply out of your own sentimentality and prejudice even though they claim to be the only ones that are going to Heaven. Who is the one that is biased here?

You challenge me to get on a Oneness website and learn from them. Do I have to stick my head in a garbage pail to learn that it is dirty. By their fruits ye shall know them, the Bible says. They have said their piece on this board. That is good enough for me. If you want a good idea of what they have both believed and practiced, and the results thereof, then I suggest that you send an email to GrannyGumbo, a present member of BB, who has already lost a son to this devastating cult. She testifies that where she lives the Oneness cult is all over her area, and she would like a missionary to come just to reach the Oneness people in that area. The influence of that cult has been devastating. Write her, and find out the details.

You say that they love to proclaim the name of Jesus just as they did in the Book of Acts. Atestring challenge them to show you the message of salvation without using the Book of Acts. They cannot do it. That is a serious flaw in their theology. Without the Book of Acts they are totally lost. There is no Romans Road, no John 3:16; no other way to Heaven but through the Book of Acts. That in itself is a warning sign that something is terribly wrong.

I am not wrong on the Oneness Pentecostal. I have posted what they believe. How can you miss it? Read it again. I gave you a link from where their beliefs came from. It was well researched. Oneness churches themselves will admit to these beliefs. Ask them. They are heretical. Read 2John 9-11

2 John 1:9-11 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

The doctrine of Christ in verse 9 refers to the deity of Christ, who Christ is, the trinity, etc.
The Bible says that these people have not God.
Verse 10 commands you not to let them into your house, and not even to say good-by to them. (God speed is the old English term for our modern day expression of good-bye.)
Verse 11 teaches us that if you do wish him good bye (God-be-with-ye or Good-bye) then you yourself have become partakers of their evil deeds.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Sounds like your standard rather than the Word of God is Granny Gumbo. With all due respect to Granny she , you, or, I are not infallable.

Again let me ask you, are Oneness Pentecostals strong in Canada where you live. Are you loosing church members to them. If so why?
Do you know any Oneness Pentecostals personally and have you been to there church to see first hand what they believe ?
I grew up in a town that The UPC Church is the largest church in the City. The Pastors son was a good friend and He never tried to tell me that I wasn't saved or that I was into doctrinal error.
He was just a good Christian friend. I never heard him say anything that made me believe that He didn't believe in the deity of Jesus. I even visited his church once. It was a little different thatn what I was used to but Ididn't see uncscriptural practices.

Once we did discuss baptizing in the name of Jesus rather than the Father son and Holy Ghost but he showed me that this happened in the Bible. He never told me that I wasn't saved because I was baptized in the name of the Father , Son and Holy Ghost. He may have believed differently than I but that does not make his church a cult anymore than some of the churches that you mentioned that you do not agree with and do not consider them a cult simply because you do not agree with them .
I disagree with you but I will say "good bye" for right now.

 

BTW DKh
Do you say "Hello" to people that you disagree with?

 

Any cult, (like Oneness) that claims to be the only ones that are going to Heaven, are definitely a cult. Any group that denies the trinity fall into the category of a cult, for they attack the person of Jesus Christ. Your URL did nothing to address these issues, only tried to explain them away using a lot of double talk. A Oneness article written to defend their indefensible doctrine. It can easily be picked apart. For example: "We do not believe that the Father is the Son, [but] we do believe that the Father is in the Son" What they are not clearly saying is that Jesus Christ is simply a manifestation of the other persons of the trinity, all of whom exist at one point in time in the person of Jesus Christ. In reality there (in their minds) there are no other "persons" of the trinity. The only "person" is Jesus Christ. The others are simply manifestations. This is heresy.

It is a cult, and rightly deserves its place among the J.W.'s and other wicked cults.
DHK

 

Wouldn't some IFB churches, then, fall into the cult category?

 

No my standard is the Word of God, which the Oneness cult does not match up to. I used Granny Gumbo and her situation as an example. If you can't accept that, then fine and well. That is your problem.

Your questions are moot, and having nothing to do with the discussion at hand. I will say this: that I have met such people and talked with them, but no we are certainly not losing any members (or sleep) over them. The Bible warns of wolves in sheep clothing. It commands us to rebuke false doctrine and to expose it.
I don't have to put my head into a garbage pail to find out whether or not it is dirty. I don't have to take drugs to find out if they damage the mind. I don't have to drink to find out if it makes me drunk. I don't have to either talk to Oneness or become one to find out if it is heretical. It is.

"And Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."
Would any cult come right out and tell you all that is wrong with his cult. An SDA would act the same way. It doesn't make them right.

He probably didn't tell you that if you were not baptized by them, in their churh, by their pastor, that you were not saved. Right?
DHK

 

I do live smack-dab in the middle of the biggest cult this side of the Mississippi River and they are growing like wildfire! Lots of loud music, complete with drums, dark lights, and the works. Pew-walkers, running/dancing, an all-out circus.

Our little farming town is completely saturated and not one single preacher will stand up to them. As a matter of fact, they are received very well. They're all over the radio, and all in the newspaper. For a while, I was placing articles refuting their heresy, but because I'm a woman, felt it best a man should do it, but none have, except on occasion when my son'n'law will. The paper charges a min. of $35 per ad.

Across the road from me is 40 acres owned by them, 10 acres on either side and the multi-million $ Tabernacle is being built behind me. They have run into many finaNcial problems, including lawsuits, so I don't know if it'll ever get finished. Off this, there are several satellite churches, because of the "splits" (power-struggles).

Our parish is at least 90% tongue-babblers. The Bishop Couch brings folks in from all over, including a yodeler from Branson and is constantly buying land all around & putting in trailers. The richer ones build their own homes.

It's all about power and money. He owns a helicopter, jet, ski boats, party barges, a guest home, a 6-bedroom 4-bath house with marbled floors, 8-man hot tub and exotic birds.

The elite in the "church" drive the same type vehicles,(Navigators) or at least the same colours. Then down the ladder of progression, they all drive whatever the next is. He "keeps" concubines and he causes divorces if the one spouse won't join or tries to dissuade the other.

He "blackballs" anyone who does not agree with him. He is their "god-man" & says whether or not they go to heaven. All these 'cults' give a "bible study" that is an entrapment. This is one of the ways they hook people; my son included. He was hit on the head with the jawbone of an ass and when he came to, he was different. He renounced his Baptist heritage & condemned us all to hell. Satan had seduced him.

Before getting involved with this cult, he was a deacon, youth director, sang in the choir, and was the church's financial secretary. He had the wife of his youth, together they had a sweet baby boy and he held a high position in a bank. He owned his own home and had status in the neighbourhood.

Today, he is divorced, never sees his firstborn, is jobless, per se, and his home burned down. He lives in constant pain and he no longer has the assurance of his salvation. The cult takes 75% of one's income and if they cannot work, they look for folks to sue.

Yes, I will speak to these people, as God has given me the strength to forgive them. I actually get along better with them than the loose carnal baptists in our area, mainly because of modest dress & the fact they use the kjBible, exclusively. But I will never stop trying to show them the error of their teachings.

I have signs on my property for everyone who passes...such has "Tongues have ceased", "Your gift is from hell"...things like that. I carry "tongues" tracts & salvation tracts, wherever I go. Wal*Mart is crawling with them; tho' this sect out here is only allowed 15 minutes in there. I wear a blouse that has Scripture written on it. I am always there in their face-a thorn in their side.

I will never stop warning-never! I do not want another to be deceived by this false teaching. I didn't know about it, else I would have taught my children the dangers of it. I'd never so much as heard of "Oneness". They deny salvation is by grace thru faith alone. They are trusting in tongues and water baptism in Jesus' Name.

God is not mocked nor is He the author of confusion! There is much information found within God's precious Word that reveal Who God is! No, we do not worship 3 gods or a 3-headed god.

Satan is out to destroy everything he can with his lies and our own family who used to be 16-strong within the same church, is a prime example. You must make sure your beliefs are grounded in the true Word of God during these perilous times. EVEN SO, COME, LORD JESUS!

 

Is there a difference between a group of heretics and a cult? Both words are being used fluidly with little distinction. Maybe that would help you guys straighten this thing out.

Grace and Peace, Danny

 

Read more at www.carm.org

DHK

 

No my standard is the Word of God, which the Oneness cult does not match up to. I used Granny Gumbo and her situation as an example. If you can't accept that, then fine and well. That is your problem.

Your questions are moot, and having nothing to do with the discussion at hand. I will say this: that I have met such people and talked with them, but no we are certainly not losing any members (or sleep) over them. The Bible warns of wolves in sheep clothing. It commands us to rebuke false doctrine and to expose it.
I don't have to put my head into a garbage pail to find out whether or not it is dirty. I don't have to take drugs to find out if they damage the mind. I don't have to drink to find out if it makes me drunk. I don't have to either talk to Oneness or become one to find out if it is heretical. It is.

"And Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."
Would any cult come right out and tell you all that is wrong with his cult. An SDA would act the same way. It doesn't make them right.

He probably didn't tell you that if you were not baptized by them, in their churh, by their pastor, that you were not saved. Right?
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Being baptized in a particular denominational church as requirement for salvation is implied im Many Baptist churches.

Your post imply that if anyone disagrees with you as you have said before that they are arguing with God.

After some thought I have decided that I will not wish you God's speed based upon your own comments.

 

And it would be biblically wrong, imo.

 

No Baptist believes that. If you believe that then you are not a Baptist. That baptism is a requirement for salvation, is a heresy known as baptismal regeneration--one of the early heresies of the church. Baptism doesn't save. The blood of Christ does. Baptism, in this way, takes away from the sufficiency of the atoning work of Christ on the cross. There is no Baptist that believes that baptism is required for salvation. If he did, he wouldn't be baptist.
DHK

 

DHK: I was part of a UPC for almost 2 years (although never formally "joined"). While I still maintain friendships from the UPC and genuinely miss the people, I will have to say that they definitely have some "cultish" tendencies. Even though your friend didn't come right out and tell you that he didn't think you were saved, trust me, these people think that the ONLY formula for salvation is in the book of ACTS. I got so sick of every other sermon being from that chapter. They think that if you're not bapised in Jesus name ONLY, then any other baptism doesn't count. The UPC I attended did not harp on dress issues, and no one covered their head, so I don't think that (head covering) is done in a lot of UPC churches that I'm familiar with. Never heard that to be something they normally do. However, I was one of the few who wore makeup and pants outside of church. No one ever chastised me for this, however, I left due to their narrow interpretation on what salvation is. They do sincerely believe they have cornered the market on Christianity, and I speak from experience on this one.

[ May 06, 2004, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Mitsy ]