Help with supplying information to children

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Phillip, Aug 27, 2010.

  1. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    I know the other moderators are going to flip when they read this, but I ask them to allow it to continue until I gather the information I need.

    I have some children who are in a fundamentalist group where the preacher spends each Sunday chastising every Christian in the room (I've visited plenty of times.) You need to use the belt on your kids all the time or they will go wrong. On and on.

    Here goes, and I'm ducking while I say this; he is as far to the wrong side of KJVO as you can go.

    First, I want to lay down a rule on this thread, if that is possible. I do not wish to hear from any KJVO's. They will not change my philosophy. I only want to hear from educated or self-educated people who have no problems with main-stream Modern Versions:

    Ist because my child (who is 22) thinks she can understand the King's language; would you please provide me with a link to the list of words we had somewhere (and I can't find) of words from 1700's that have completely different definitions from our modern language. The more the better, so multiple lists are great and that's what I'm looking for.

    I also need either documented, or seminary information that will be persuasive that the KJV is not the only good translation and that there are probably much better English translations.

    I would like information to debate against the Riplinger arguments (the preacher has to be a Riplinger fan because he quotes her on items such as all MV's are "New Age". How do I fight that when my child who has a college education (in medical field, but not a doctor by a long shot) can see through half-baked arguments.

    I do not have the money to purchase books for her, nor will she read them because her pastor tells her not to read stuff from the devil, like books supporting MV's.

    The more substantiated information I can get, the happier I will be. This has to stop, the parents (my kids) are indoctrinating their grandchildren, etc.

    By the way, I need some help with something outside of translations, but indirectly related. She says her husband is the boss. To be honest, he is a little uneducated and slow, but says we do what the preacher says, so he tells the kids if they talk in church (a 5 year old) that he will get the belt when he gets home and sure enough (I will not testify against my kids here, but I want to change them. You can't whip a 5 year old after you have gone out to eat with the preacher paying or having a pot luck every Sunday (they do indulge and find nothing wrong with eating tons of fat.) then take him home and beat him with a belt. The mother allows it because the father is the boss and will see God through her even though he acts like a wild man when the preacher isn't driving him out of town to buy him suits. (They blame the kids cursing on the school, when it comes from the home.) I know they are trying to be good in church and they haven't been tied into a church, but this one is taking them down a path that is hurting the grandchildren.

    If I can hit the KJVO thing and stay away from personal issues I think I might get them to see other errors. I have been SBC all of my life and every one was a very conservative church; but, I have never seen a pastor yell at the Christians and the SBC's down the street (knowing we are visiting---at least he looks at us and says I'm not talking to any particular person) about how liberal they are.

    Again, if you are KJVO. Believe what you want, but don't waste our web-space trying to convert me. Otherwise, I give permission to the other mods/admins to edit to their hearts content. This will not become a fight or I will shut it down myself.

    If you don't want to post and would rather send me private info, that is fine too. I just need theological help on translations here so I can put up an educated and convincing argument that they, especially the young children would be better off with an MV. You don't have to go through the MV's and give me an education on each version. I am quite aware of the backgrounds and type of translation used for each. I'm thinking the list of words from the KJV will be a good place to start and go from there.

    Thank you!
    Phillip
     
  2. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'll just say- I'll be praying for you and for those precious grandchildren. Go and rescue them from this so-called "church" before it is too late.
     
  3. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    78
    I can surely understand your challenges. I am anxious with you for your children and grandchildren. I will be praying for you.

    If you can find 'The King James Bible Word Book' published by Nelson it would be a big help.

    THIS LINK looks like it is the most common words that are normally listed

    I found Carson's 'The King James Version Debate' very informative. It helped me see the perspective of those who are supporters of the Alexandrian text body, but most all it is a scholarly presentation which helped me to balance out my own view.

    I am Byzantine text body preferred. An excellent treatise on that viewpoint that does not go the the KJV extreme is Trinitarian Bible Society's pamphlet 'The Lord Gave the Word.'

    You might want to read some of their stuff as well - such as 'Touch Not the Unclean Thing.'

    You need to try and read through Riplinger - she is anything but scholastic. Her arguments are self destructive.

    BTW, if you need a distant ear to bend I have a US telephone number. I am also on Skype and Vonage for Facebook. PM me if you are interested.

    I am a grand dad as well - understand your fears and dilemma.
     
    #3 NaasPreacher (C4K), Aug 28, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 28, 2010
  4. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,118
    Likes Received:
    319
    Hi Phillip, one of the basic problems with the KJVO theory is that the KJ Bible itself has had several revisions and publishers.

    The product of these revisions and publishers differ from one another ( AD1611, AD1769, Oxford, Cambridge and modernly Nelson).

    Not as pronounced as the MV's but they do differ.

    One of the mantras (now mostly silenced) of the "onlyist" was "things which are different are not the same" as their own argument defeats their theory in light of the various KJ Bibles which differ in places.

    As to parental corporal punishment, the OT allowed it for children.

    Some counselors believe it should or could be used as a last resort to modify dangerous or rebellious behavior (e.g. a fascination with matches and fire setting) after repeated attempts to correct the child's behavior with non-corporal means.

    As a child, I was brought up as Roman Catholic and corporal punishment was used in the Catholic Schools which I attended for short time as well as in the public schools (Boston area).

    The East Boston Police were also very rough with us when they caught us playing hookey or stealing.

    It worked for the most part, but of course the heart was unchanged.

    In many states, corporal punishment could be construed as physical child abuse.

    Reward denial or "time out" seems a better way but even that could be used against a parent as child abuse if excessive.

    We used to give our kids an allowance. One of our methods of behavior modification was to deny some or all of their weekly allowance for willful misbehavior.

    I hope this helps.

    HankD
     
  5. TomVols

    TomVols
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    James White's "King James Only Controversy" is also helpful, as is John Ankerberg's pamphlet on the issue.
     
  6. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,136
    Likes Received:
    364
    I cannot help you right now but I will pray for wisdom for you and open eyes for your children. What a sad place to be.
     
  7. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks

    Thank you very much for understanding. I wrote the post late in the evening after a very rough day and what almost turned into an argument from my daughter, but I managed to calm her down.

    I appreciate all of the advice and prayers, I found enough information (I think) to at least get them to think about what their pastor is saying.

    I have never been against spanking a child, but I do not believe you tell a child you are going to beat him with your belt, wait five hours until it is almost his naptime and make him take his pants off and go to work with the strap. He is even beat if he wets his pants at school--and he is a chubby boy who has trouble on a toilet. Dirty underware gets him a beating. I had two belt whippings by my dad when I was young, he didn't need to repeat them and they were NOT bad when I think back. Hitting me on the rear about twice with my clothes all on was a lot more embarrassing than painful. He and my mother were good Christians and believed in spanking, but they were also careful even in the 60's when DHS wasn't spying through your window for child abuse. I guess I am just frustrated and the legal route always causes pain and heartache for all those involved if it can be avoided.

    I have already seen a change in my grandson and he has begun to lie to stay out of trouble because he is threatened to get beat by his step-father (a very big man who works outside) and yells at him all of the time. My daughter simply says: The Bible says he is the boss.....and what he says goes regardless of what he says.

    My hardest problem today is explaining why we make and ship bombs to kill people. Try explaining that to a five year old. I have enough problem with it myself when they fall on the targets.

    I have visited the church many times to encourage my daughter, but one day I just had enough and would have probably said something to the pastor. His sermons are strictly, you Christians need to straighten up and beat your kids to make them good and we have God's word the KJV 1611 to tell us that and not these liberal SBC churches around town who use New Age Bibles written by Satan." I am simply quoting what they are hearing on an almost daily basis and I'm afraid for my grandkids.

    I know the people in the audience mean well, but you can tell non of them have had any formal training or Bible study. The pastor only reads about one verse at the beginning of the sermon and its usually Paul jumping down on a church going wrong.

    I don't know that I have ever really heard the gospel there.......that is something to think about. Again, thank you and C4K if you want to shut down here, that's fine with me, I will leave it up to you.
     
  8. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    I spent the last hour putting this together, you jolly well better read it! :smilewinkgrin:
    The KJV is a beautiful translation, a wonder of its time, used by God to bring innumerable souls to their Creator.
    This list should not cause one to doubt the Scriptures but to wonder at the variety of ways his word has been transmitted through his children through time.

    One of my favorites
    But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;
    1 Kings 11:1 (AV 1873)

    Opposite meaning


    For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    2 Thessalonians 2:7 (AV 1873)

    Compare:

    For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
    2 Thessalonians 2:7 (ESV)

    Also see:

    and ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
    James 2:3 (AV 1873)

    Compare:

    and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,”
    James 2:3 (ESV)


    Simply mistaken translations


    The ships of Tarshish did sing of thee in thy market: and thou wast replenished, and made very glorious in the midst of the seas.
    Ezekiel 27:25 (AV 1873)



    Yet they had a file for the mattocks, and for the coulters, and for the forks, and for the axes, and to sharpen the goads.
    1 Samuel 13:21 (AV 1873)

    Changing words

    storehouses also for the increase of corn, and wine, and oil; and stalls for all manner of beasts, and cotes for flocks.
    2 Chronicles 32:28 (AV 1873)


    and they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
    Deuteronomy 22:19 (AV 1873)


    For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
    Leviticus 21:18–20 (AV 1873)


    And if the priest look on the plague of the scall, and behold, it be not in sight deeper than the skin, and that there is no black hair in it; then the priest shall shut up him that hath the plague of the scall seven days:
    Leviticus 13:31 (AV 1873)

    The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold:
    The spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.
    Job 41:26 (AV 1873)

    Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing:
    The LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
    Psalm 5:6 (AV 1873)


    The vile person shall be no more called liberal,
    Nor the churl said to be bountiful.

    The instruments also of the churl are evil:
    He deviseth wicked devices
    To destroy the poor with lying words,
    Even when the needy speaketh right.
    Isaiah 32:5, 7 (AV 1873)


    that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:
    Daniel 3:5 (AV 1873)

    And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
    Acts 9:5 (AV 1873)

    God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    Romans 11:2 (AV 1873)
    (compare Numbers 26:6 and many others)


    Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
    Romans 13:13 (AV 1873)

    Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.
    Acts 23:5 (AV 1873)
    Compare Lev. 5:18!


    Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
    James 1:21 (AV 1873)

    Hope this helps.

    I'm praying for God's word to prevail in your situation.

    Rob
     
    #8 Deacon, Aug 28, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 28, 2010
  9. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Please understand

    Please understand that I have NOTHING wrong with the KJV. I think it is one of the most accurate and beautiful Bibles created in the English language. Especially after it was updated several times.

    My problem is not so much the accuracy as the understanding of children who can barely read to start with have difficulty and get frustrated trying to read the KJV.

    When I was young, in the 60's and later I started out trying to read my KJV and didn't leave understanding a thing. The sad and often inaccurate "Good News for Modern Man" was passed out in our church in NT paperback. I got a copy and mom couldn't get me to listen to the preacher for reading the wonderful stories in the gospels and Paul's travels, etc. It may have contained errors, but I learned more about God's world and what he wanted from us from the GNMM than I ever did from the KJV. Not until I was older did I appreciate the grammar of the KJV (and studied Shakespeare, etc.).

    The Living Bible was then a blessing to me.
    Are there errors? Yes, probably big ones and ones I never caught, but I don't think it destroyed my knowledge of the Bible because around that time I was reading the Living Bible (I'm talking about the old Paraphrase) and compare it to other translations, at that time I decided to pick up on a brand new NASB and I was in hog heaven. That was my study Bible for years and I do not understand why people say it is "woody" and difficult to read; I think it has to do with what you get used to, but I could not master the KJV and the verses we memorized in BB school left me as soon as I got my gold star for the verse. I'm not complaining and it didn't hurt me to put those in my heart but we memorized to get the rewards and didnt pay attention to the meaning.

    My daughter does let me read from MV's about Bible stories; at least I think she understands some and the seed is planted, but she doesn't let him come over because his step-father who is the BOSS says no unless his two year old comes too and my wife and I can't take care of both of them at the same time since the two year old is into everything, including stealing cell-phones and flushing them, and other cute little tricks they play at that age.

    She wanted me to start a project with the 5 year old who is VERY bright for his age. (He can draw a plane with a bomb on it and explain the parts.)

    Grandpa just has to tell this story: We were at a local air museum who was lucky enough to get an F-14 before congress has them cut into 2 cubic square feet to keep Iran from getting spare parts. The cockpit was open and I told him about the altimeter (altitude meter), the throttles (engine speed), the wings that sweep back at about 400 knots turning it into a wicked high-speed fighter and a safe low speed fighter, the stick (steering--basically for non-pilots) and ejection seat among other things. The next thing I know here is this five year old pointing to each item and explaining it to at least ten people who were half adults and half kids. I was never so proud; he actually listened and understood what those items were for and now we are building a radio controlled (or more or less computer controlled) airplane that I am designing. He's loving it, but his mom is not letting him come over to work on it now because she's mad I told her he needed a Bible to read.

    Anyway, you can tell I've been pretty isolated for a while, but my point is that is never had a problem with the KJV except the earlier version of our language which changes almost every five years now. Ya know! :thumbs: Dig it? Now that was groovy.

    My second complaint is that children are not taught to read like we were. My daughter was under an experimental program that didn't work and she was lucky to make it through college with her reading skills. She did not read paperbacks like my oldest daughter consummed and therefore the Bible was definitely not on her reading list until she started going to this church, but they only learn certain verses: Those related to the man being the boss of the family, how children should be whipped, and how evil all the other Christians in town (especially us conservative SB's)---very limited. They have the words KJV on one arm of the cross and 1611 on the other with a circle around it. THAT is their church's logo that is used when they door knock and do no more than invite people to their church where I have yet to hear the gospel during a sermon.

    The KJV, great Bible. I use it in my comparisons now since I am not good at Hebrew and Greek I am limited to comparing translations and by doing this I have seen and understood things I never would without that capability.

    By the way E-Sword has ESV free along with the older texts--you have to pay copyright on the new versions except ESV; if you want them and I refuse to pay the ridiculous prices some like the NIV think they deserve when the translation and printing to electronic media has long been paid for. The NASB is very reasonable, so are other versions. You can compare verses and chapters side-by-side; you might be surprised what you find.
     
  10. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    I gave away the 1995 version of the KJVO Controversy.(I may as well say I gave it away.I haven't heard from the KJVO guy in years.)

    A few days ago I bought James White's 2009 update. It is fascinating. Of course Philip Comfort's books are top-notch regarding versions and textual issues.Factual info is such a blessing.
     
  11. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,439
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am not sure that you will ever change the issues within the family by trying to change their mind about KJVO. The issue goes much deeper. With that kind of family dynamic, they will simply exchange one sort of dysfunction for another.

    Will be praying for you.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Still praying for you daily, Brother Phillip.

    -- Ed Edwards, Retired!
    I finally found something at which I am good :)
     
  13. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you, Ed. It is GREAT to hear from a brother like you!
     

Share This Page

Loading...