Here is wisdom.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Palatka51, Jan 13, 2008.

  1. Palatka51

    Palatka51
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    Revelation 13:18
    18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

    Where is the wisdom if this is the number of the man that is to be the Anti-Christ?
    Is this referring to the fact that we might be able to identify the Antichrist with this number? As in counting the numerical value of the name of an individual to determine his identity as that of the Antichrist. I must say that this method of identification has failed to enlighten any one as to Antichrist's identity sense it was suggested that it referred to Nero until Ronald Reagan.
    So how then do we glean any wisdom from verse 18?
     
  2. The Scribe

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    It's wise to know the mark of the beast and how it will be used.

    Revelation 13:16-18
    16: And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
    17: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
    18: Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
     
  3. Tom Bryant

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    It may also be wise to know that most prophecies are not understood nor understandable until they are fulfilled... so trying to pin a number to a person/thing or whatever is an exercise in futility.
     
  4. Palatka51

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    When it comes to looking for wisdom I would like to say that we should be looking into God's Word rather than looking for current events to reveal what His Word says. And I think that the number six hundred and sixty six is the key for finding that wisdom. To take a person of history or in the present and assign that number to him is, in my opinion, not wise.

    Yes indeed it does set the context of verse 18 and the identification of his political and social economic system. However I think that we can use this number for more wisdom than what is in these 3 verses.
     
  5. Palatka51

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    1John 2:18-19
    18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    Just look at First John 2:18&19 and I think you'll realize where I might be going with this thread. Verse 18 (6+6+6) is a writing by John and again verse 18 refers to an antichrist and then many antichrists. Then in continuing the context John tells us from whence they came. They came from out of us, the Church. Just as Judas was one of the 12 and he departed from the serving of the Last Supper and proceeded to betray Jesus. This is found in The Gospel According to St John chapter 18.

    Now Look at verse 18.

    John 18:17&18
    17Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, Art not thou also one of this man’s disciples? He saith, I am not.
    18And the servants and officers stood there, who had made a fire of coals; for it was cold: and they warmed themselves: and Peter stood with them, and warmed himself.
    Now I am not saying that this verse is setting Peter up to being a type of antichrist but I think that it is significant of the Churches condition as while Peter is in denial, he is warming himself with the world and it only gets worse for him as he will deny, and with cursing btw, Jesus two more times.

    Now I know what you are thinking. The assignment of the scripture to chapters and verses did not come until hundreds of years after the canon was introduced. Just indulge me for a bit and I think that you will see it too.

    Look into all of John's books and find the 18th verse of each chapter and see if you can find wisdom in regards to Rev 13:18's context. Now please note that not all of the 18th verses are not going to be in that context but you will find that many will.

    Please let me know what you find.:godisgood:
     
    #5 Palatka51, Jan 14, 2008
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  6. grace56

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    Last year we a had a wonderful Bible study with the book of Revelations. This is what our teacher said about the 666 of Revealtions.

    The reference to 666 in Revelation 13 has generated more discussion than any other number in the book of Revelation. If 7 represents complete perfection, then 666 represents a complete falling short of perfection. Unlike English, Hebrew and Greek have numeric values attached to every letter and the people of John's day new that. Thus every "name" has a corresponding numeric equivalent. If you put the Greek word for beast (therion) into Hebrew, it adds up to 666. Interestingly, the numeric value of "Ceasar Nero" in Hebrew characters is also 666. Given that most of the events of Revelation likely ocurred during Nero's violent persecutions this number might represent him. This attachment of combinations of the number 6 with an enemy of God, a wicked ruler, or false worship has it's origin in the Old Testement ( see 1 Sam 17:7; 1 Kings 10:14 and Dan 3:1)


    Grace56
     
  7. MustardSeed

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    I have always been curious as to what the original version of the book states, since there is a probability that any of the many translations we read are different from the original.
     
  8. Grasshopper

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    http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/05-10-05.asp


    Ancient numbering systems used an alpha-numeric method. This is true of the Latin (Roman) system that is still common today: I=1, V=5, X=10, L=50, C=100, D=500, M=1000. Greek and Hebrew follow a similar method where each letter of their alphabets represents a number. The first nine letters represent 1–9.3 The tenth letter represents 10, with the nineteenth letter representing 100 and so on. Since the Book of Revelation is written in a Hebrew context by a Jew with numerous allusions to the Old Testament, we should expect the solution to deciphering the meaning of six hundred and sixty-six to be Hebraic. "The reason clearly is that, while [John] writes in Greek, he thinks in Hebrew, and the thought has naturally affected the vehicle of expression."


    When Nero Caesar's name is transliterated into Hebrew, which a first-century Jew would probably have done, he would have gotten Neron Kesar or simply nrwn qsr, since Hebrew has no letters to represent vowels. “It has been documented by archaeological finds that a first century Hebrew spelling of Nero's name provides us with precisely the value of 666. Jastrow's lexicon of the Talmud contains this very spelling.

    When we take the letters of Nero's name and spell them in Hebrew, we get the following numeric values: n=50, r=200, w=6, n=50, q=100, s=60, r=200 = 666. “Every Jewish reader, of course, saw that the Beast was a symbol of Nero. And both Jews and Christians regarded Nero as also having close affinities with the serpent or dragon. . . . The Apostle writing as a Hebrew, was evidently thinking as a Hebrew. . . . Accordingly, the Jewish Christian would have tried the name as he thought of the name—that is in Hebrew letters. And the moment that he did this the secret stood revealed. No Jew ever thought of Nero except as ‘Neron Kesar.



    A fragment from the oldest surviving copy of the New Testament shows that the number of the Beast of Revelation 13 is 616. Ellen Aitken, a professor of early Christian history at McGill University, states that “the majority opinion seems to be that it refers to [the Roman emperor] Nero.” The early fragment supports the view that Revelation was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, and whether the number is 666 or 616, the number is a reference to Nero and not some end-time antichrist figure.


    Rev 1:1 A Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to declare to His servants things which must shortly come to pass. And He signified it by sending His angel to His servant John,

    Rev 1:3
    Blessed is the one who reads and hears the Words of this prophecy, and the ones keeping the things written in it, for the time is near.

    Rev 22:10 And he said to me, Do not seal the Words of the prophecy of this Book; for the time is at hand.
     
  9. Palatka51

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    I completely understand this numerical system. Did anyone not read the OP? Please just consider every 18th verse from out of each book that is attributed to John and tell me what you think. We are not in this tread to discuss Nero's or Ronald Reagan's numerical value in the Greek, Latin, Hebrew or any other language. Please check out the verses and get back to me. Thanks.
     
  10. Grasshopper

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    Why don't you explain what you want in the OP? Here was your statement:

    Revelation 13:18
    18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

    Where is the wisdom if this is the number of the man that is to be the Anti-Christ?
    Is this referring to the fact that we might be able to identify the Antichrist with this number? As in counting the numerical value of the name of an individual to determine his identity as that of the Antichrist. I must say that this method of identification has failed to enlighten any one as to Antichrist's identity sense it was suggested that it referred to Nero until Ronald Reagan.
    So how then do we glean any wisdom from verse 18?


    I answered your question, if you want to play some kind goofy Bible Code fantasy game please say so in the opening statement. You asked about Rev. 13:18 not about every 18th verse in every book that John wrote. :BangHead:
     
  11. Palatka51

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    What is goofy about searching for wisdom in every 18th verse? Some times the folks on this site can be very unloving.
    My OP was very clear that I did not want to go into the name/number game as that number has been tagged on political and religious figures throughout all of history. If I was not clear in my OP then please forgive me and please read the other posts as we study together in peace.
    Now lets see what the Bible says about gaining wisdom from that number.

    Please note that the 18th verse of chapter 13 tells us that "Here is Wisdom". Now look at;
    1John 2:18-19
    18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
    19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    This book written by John again refers us to the antichrist and proceeds to tell us that this antichrist and in fact many antichrists have come out of the church. Not out of a Pagan society. Not out of a political order but out of the Church.

    Now look at The Gospel According to John chapter 18. It begins with the betrayal of Jesus by Judas who, as we know, is one of the 12.
    Then verse 18 of the same chapter tells us of Peter's denial of Christ while he is warming himself by the fire.

    Could this signify a condition of the Church as John tells in 1John 2:18&19?

    Could this show that the Church will be so politically correct that it will be in the same spirit that Peter was as he warmed himself with the Fires of the world?

    There is more wisdom that points to this subject in many of the 18th verses out of John's books.

    Now please let's honor each others study without belittling each other.

    Thank you.:godisgood:

    May God bless.
     
  12. grace56

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    Both the Old and New Testement is full of wisdom, not just the 18th verse in certain chapters. Your post does not make sense.


    Grace56
     
  13. Palatka51

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    Of course there is wisdom in all of God's Word. I am trying to get every one to understand that there is more to Rev 13:18 than just a numerical value of a man and to be honest all that do this are very quick to attach that number to men of historical and even present political value.
    The 18th verses of Johns writings will give us the wisdom in context to Rev 13:18 that will show us the worlds condition as well as the Church's.
    Please if you feel lead to do this study with me, do it with integrity of brotherly spirit and lets get this wisdom that Rev 13:18 promises. If you do not feel lead to do so then reserve your posts for another thread.
    Thank you.

    God Bless:godisgood:
     
  14. Tom Bryant

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    The problem is that there were no verse or chapter separations in what John wrote... I know you asked us to "indulge" with you, but if you accept a faulty premise you will come to a faulty conclusion.
     
  15. Palatka51

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    What is faulty about a verse to verse study?
    I find that Rev 13:18 is quite uncanny in that 18 is the sum of 6+6+6. Then 1John 2:18 speaks of antichrist(s) that have came out of the Church. Plus you have chapter 18 of St John that speaks of the betrayal of Jesus by one of His own disciples, Judas along with Peter's denial as he is warming himself by the fire and the desertion of the rest. I think that there is wisdom here and I wish to share it.

    Look at these verses.

    St John 2:12-22
    12After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.
    13And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
    14And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
    15And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;
    16And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.
    17And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
    18Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign showest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
    19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
    20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    21But he spake of the temple of his body.
    22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
    Another set of verses that tells of the rejection of Jesus as the Christ and verse 18 is at the center of the context.
    Isn't 666 the ultimate rejection of Jesus and the acceptance of a man?
     
    #15 Palatka51, Jan 16, 2008
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  16. Palatka51

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    Now look at St John 3:18
    St John 3:17-21
    17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


    Again the context is the rejection of Christ.
    Aren't there many in the Church that are preaching that you can reach heaven without believing in Jesus the Son of the Living God?
     
    #16 Palatka51, Jan 16, 2008
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  17. Palatka51

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    Now check this out.
    St John 5:17-47
    17But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
    18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
    19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
    20For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and he will show him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
    21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
    22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
    23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
    24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
    31If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
    32There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
    33Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
    34But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
    35He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
    36But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
    37And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
    38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
    39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
    40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
    41I receive not honour from men.
    42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
    43I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
    44How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
    45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
    46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
    47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


    Again we find rejection in verse 18.
    Now while we are in this context look at verse 43. I wonder just who takes the place of Christ after He is rejected of men?! Might I refer you back to Rev 13:18?
    I've included all verses that relate, in context, to verse 18 so we can see the subject is the rejection of Christ and how seriously Jesus deals with this subject.
     
    #17 Palatka51, Jan 16, 2008
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  18. Grasshopper

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    Rev 13:18 Here is the wisdom. Let him having reason count the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. And its number is six hundred and sixty-six.
     
  19. Palatka51

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    Thank you Grasshopper. Now lets look into this number and find wisdom.:godisgood:
     
  20. Palatka51

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    More on the rejection of Christ as the Savior.

    St John 7:14-20
    14Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.
    15And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
    16Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
    18He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
    19Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
    20The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

    Sure seems to me that we get some info from verse 18 regarding the Antichrist's motivation for doing what he is going to do. Wouldn't you say that this is more wisdom gained regarding this threads subject?
     

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