Here we go again.

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by hrhema, Nov 27, 2002.

  1. hrhema

    hrhema
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    There is so much legalism that gets into people's hearts. Too many people forget that salvation comes through the blood of Jesus not by man made rules.

    A thread was just temporary closed on a subject that is very argumentive and that is it a sin for women to wear pants. This is a legalistic issue.
    Holiness churches teach this not in reality based on true biblical interpretation but because of the need of certain individuals who need to control the lives of other believers.

    As being part of a holiness group for many many years I know for a fact that most of these standards of Holiness as they are called are man made or faulty interpretation of the Bible. When the issue about pants are taught on by Holiness preachers they claim that pants were created for men not women and that is what makes them sin. Yet historically they know they are in error. Also there are islands in the pacific and even in Oriental countries women have worn pants for thousands of years. A general superintendant of one of the largest Holiness movements once said that they could not reach these people because of this issue so they shook the dust of their feet and dropped trying to reach them for God.

    You can take so many things and make a legalistic issue out of it. These groups teach that a woman cutting her hair is sin and they take the scripture in 1 Corinthians 11 and twist it. They ignore the fact that God told Israelite men that if they wanted to marry a woman from another nation she would have to shave her head. Also they ignore the fact that in some tribes the women shaved their heads and wore wigs when betrothed so no man would be attracted to them.

    Then they say wearing jewelry is sin. Some do allow a wedding ring and watch. Others do not.
    They took two scriptures in I Timothy and I Peter and twisted them to fit their teachings and yet ignore all the scriptures in the Old Testament which tells us jewelry was worn by the Jews. There is a scripture in Ezekiel where God himself speaking metaphorically of Israel as if she is a woman declared he was going to deck her in jewelry.

    I have heard the following things preached against by Holiness groups.

    Deodorant, After shave, colored shirts, colored underwear. Soap. Women shaving their legs and underarms. Tie clasps or tacs. Cufflinks. Earrings. Necklaces. Gold Chains. Shoes with buckles on them. MEn using hair spray or style gel. Colored suits. Pants for women. Makeup for women. Women cutting their hair. Men letting their hair touch their collars or ears. Moustaches. Beards. Caffeine of anykind. Men working in their yard shirtless in the heat. ANy kind of swim suit. Young people suiting out for gym. Any length of shorts for men or women. Jogging pants for either men or women. Bloomers. And on and on and on we go.

    Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for all the added rules and regulations they added to the law. He said they made it hard for a person to be saved.
    There were laws for laws. That is how legalistic religion can become.

    I think people can have personal convictions unto themselves but unless the Bible explicitly teaches something then we should keep our mouths quiet.

    Paul spoke about modesty for women. Why was this just directed towards the women? Very rarely do women get sexually attracted by sight. Men lust from their sight senses. It is what men see that they lust after. Yet when I was in the Holiness groups the females wore dresses four inches below their knees and yet males lusted after them. It is what is in the persons heart.

    When the clothing issues came up in the Bible there was two purposes. One is that God wants distinction between the sexes and two God wants no one to tempt the other to sin by lusting.

    The Bible really is a moderate book. Not legalistic and not liberal.
     
  2. Helen

    Helen
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    Absolutely agree. So does God. Here is what He says through Isaiah:

    For it is:
    Do and do, do and do,
    rule on rule, rule on rule,
    a little here, a little there.

    Very well, then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
    God will speak to this people,
    to whom he said,
    "This is the resting place, let the weary rest";
    and "This is the place of repose"
    but they would not listen.
    So, then, the word of the Lord to them will become:
    Do and do, do and do,
    rule on rule, rule on rule;
    a little here, a little there --
    so that they will go and fall backeard,
    be injured and snared and captured.
     
  3. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Besides the wrong use of the word legalism, you are right on. Those Holiness groups add rule upon rule because they don't know the Lord.
     
  4. Sherrie

    Sherrie
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    hrhema

    Very well done! I totally agree! You did some wonderful research. Thank you for your hard work!

    Sherrie
     
  5. donnA

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    Sounds very much like some on the BB.
     
  6. suzanne

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    thank you, hrherma! well said.

    I try not to get sucked into the petty arguments about outward appearances, but sometimes it happens. We are all at various levels of understanding and conviction. What should set us apart from the world is our love towards one another not our cannibalism.
     
  7. Molly

    Molly
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    Legalism is wrong and does add to God's word. May we always be true to the Word without adding our own ideas.
     
  8. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
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    Thanks, hrema, well said! [​IMG]

    I never go anywhere without my "lips." [​IMG]
     
  9. KeeperOfMyHome

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    It only becomes legalistic when one associates this as being an act that makes us accepted by God. Not everyone who believes ladies shouldn't wear pants is a legalist. Many hold this belief (no pants on ladies) while also understanding that this isn't what makes them justified before God. They do not judge their sisters in Christ because they wear pants . . . they accept that this is between them and God and enjoy good fellowship with them.

    Give me a humble Christian sister in pants over a high-minded Christian sister in a dress any day.

    There is a difference between having and holding to a standard and being a legalist.

    Just as others tire of having others accuse them of not being saved or of being back-slidden and rebellious because they wear pants, I tire of having folks say that those who have this standard are legalists and Pharisees. Certainly there are those who, like the Pharisees, require outward acts to make one acceptable to God. But let's not lump the whole of us together into one pile. We're not all like that. Some of us, and I would hope the majority of us, realize that salvation is of God and that with that gift of salvation comes outward changes in one's life over time. Thus, outward appearance is important, though it goes much further than what you wear.

    I think we should stop a moment, both sides of the issue, and have a little compassion and show a lot of kindness to those who oppose you on this.

    Julia
    b-r-r-r-r-r . . . build a fire baby, it's cold outside!
     
  10. Helen

    Helen
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    Fire's going. Come on over!

    Oh yeah, good post!
     
  11. Molly

    Molly
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    Great Post,Julia! I agree 100%.
     
  12. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    Trying to gain salvation or gain some standing with God by outward action is the height of humanistic folly. It is legalism run amok.

    And never met a person enmeshed in legalism that did not try to retreat under the cover of "standards". Rubbish. That is a sham that no longer should be tolerated.
     
  13. Ransom

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    Helen said:

    Here is what He says through Isaiah:

    Isn't "line upon line, precept upon precept" touted by many Fundamentalists as the proper way of understanding/interpreting the Bible?

    Yet in context, it appears to have the opposite meaning. Again.
     
  14. hrhema

    hrhema
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    I do not advocate that there are no rules and regulations that Christians are to follow. Paul gave us plenty to abide by as did Jesus and the rest of the writers of the New Testament. I also do not condemn anyone who has personal convictions or believe in holding standards that are there own beliefs as long as they don't try to force them on anyone else unless they are totally and completely Biblical and there is no doubt to the interpretation. Personal interpretations are acceptable only to the individual not to the body of believers.

    I have been attending a church where many of the women wear dresses so short that it is embarrassing to have to even see them at all in church dressed this way.

    The problem I see with all of this is that we here in American have become so sexualized that churches work on what they think is the most important and that is the outside when the inside is dead spiritually and morally. If a Christian is really walking with Jesus then they will not be tempted to sin through lusting or adultery etc
    no matter what is before them. It is when the heart is black with worldliness and carnality that we are controlled by our lusts and desires.
    If a man is living for God and loves his wife then no matter what visual image is presented in front of him he won't lust. It doesn't matter how good looking she is or what she is wearing it won't happen.

    A couple of years ago I was on a board and I was totally shocked by the attitudes and opinions of young so called Christian men. They were making excuses for their lusting. They would say things like I cannot help it if a pretty woman goes by or I cannot help it in the summer time if I see a woman in a bikini and she turns me on.
    I would reply Yes you can help it. If you are living for Christ you won't lust. It does not mean that in the proper confines of marriage that one day you won't have a clean healthy sexual relationship but you don't have to lust. Matter of fact if they cannot control their passion then they don't put themselves where they see anything that makes them lust. They honestly could not see any harm in lusting. This in their honest opinions was part of being human and out of their control.

    We can try to legislate morality but it won't work. The only thing that works is being full of God.

    When I attended these holiness churches years back the people were under so much legalistic bondage that they rarely smiled. This to me was sad. Not only that but so much emphasis was put on the outside that it was unbelievable the way these people acted. I have never seen in my life women who had such long tongues for gossipping.
    It reminded me of something I heard about gossipping women whose tongues are so long they could sit on the front porch and wipe a plate in the back part of the house with their tongues.
    The men were dictators. They were control freaks.
    They treated their wives so badly.
     
  15. donnA

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    I agree that this is what legalism is. And see it a lot here when it somes to pants and hair.

    Yah! Dr. Bob [​IMG]
     
  16. KeeperOfMyHome

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    And the same principal applies to the woman who walks close to Christ; if she is, then she will not wear something that is short/tight/revealing/immodest. She will consider her brother in Christ, and even those who are outside the body of Christ, and be considerate towards them in what she wears.

    Men will be accountable for their lustful thoughts and women for their immodesty.

    At any rate, I agree with you in that it is a horrible thing for the Christian to be held in bondage to rules and regulations. There is no joy.

    Julia
     
  17. GrannyGumbo

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    I agree that this is what legalism is. And see it a lot here when it somes to pants and hair.[katie]

    "I can't speak for the others here, but for myself, I do not wear dresses-only or grow my hair long to gain or keep my salvation. I do not think God would think less of me if I went back to the way I was before He gave me a heart for holiness, but I would be most miserable.

    I pray I continue a right attitude toward the issue of right & wrong because I love being on the right side. Before, I knew it, now I do it. I believe in Scriptural modesty & how a person dresses does matter to God.
     
  18. Headcoveredlady

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    Excelent post Granny,
    I used to gossip about those who cared about their outer appearances before a Holy God too. I loved to use the term legalism. Made it easier for me to not go to the Lord in prayer and ask what He wanted me to do. I could make them seem like fools for caring what the Lord thought about their appearance. Why would God care how we dressed? How dare He be that concerned about such small things?

    To those who are accusing me of legalism:

    I am interested too to read Scripture that has that word it in.

    And it does get tiring of BEING ACCUSED FOR TRYING TO GAIN MY SALVATION THROUGH APPEARANCE WHEN I HAVE SAID OVER AND OVER AND OVER THAT MY RIGHTEOUSNESS IS AS FILTHY TAGS. You are accusing one of God's children of blashpeming His Word and His work on the cross, which is no light matter. Because that is a much weightier matter than the appearance. If you hate me in dresses and headcovering, fine, but to accuse me of trying to gain my salvation is over the egde.

    Do you who accuse this realize you are accusing one of God's children of adding to His work on the cross? And I charge you before the Lord in heaven to find one quote where I have said that these issues have anything to do with my own salvation. If you can't please stop accusing me of trying to add to my perfect Jesus's redeeming work on the cross.

    HCL
     
  19. GrannyGumbo

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    Why would God care how we dressed[Headcoveredlady]

    "I've often pondered about when Adam & Eve made themselves the aprons out of fig leaves. They hid themselves. Why? There was noone else there to see them. They hid from the presence of the Lord God because I think they knew He cared, as evidenced when He made them coats which covers everything.
     
  20. jimslade

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    Eve was covered with a girdle. Literal translation.
     

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