Here's a question:

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by LadyEagle, May 14, 2004.

  1. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
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    Some people believe the gifts of the Spirit ceased with the Early Church. Some people believe the gifts never ceased.

    Is it possible, though, that the prophecy of Joel, repeated in Acts, is being fulfilled today, especially if it is true we are living, as some believe, in the Last Days?

     
  2. Rosell

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    I'll join with those who believe that the gifts, miraculous, ministry, otherwise, have not ceased.

    I've experienced spiritual giftedness, both in permanent, ministry gifts (at least permanent so far) and have seen and experienced the scriptural exercise of miraculous signs and wonders. Though I myself have never actually spoken in tongues, I've been present when that gift was scripturally exercised. I've experienced what many might call a "filling" or a "fullness" of the spirit in prayer with other people and came out not with an emotional experience or response, but with a definite transformation and lifting to a greater spiritual awareness that I can easily sense in myself.

    Growing up in a Baptist pastor's home, I was never really taught that the miraculous gifts were active in the church today. My Dad, who still pastors an ABC-USA church, says that "Word and Power" churches, a blending of Evangelical and Pentecostal/Charismatic beliefs and practices, are becoming quite common in that denomination, and may account for it being the fastest growing among Baptist denominations in the past two or three years.

    How about that, Lady Eagle? [​IMG]
     
  3. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    While I disagree with you LadyEagle, this is not one of those issues I am willing to fight over, especially if the sign gifts are practised in the light of 1 Corinthians 14v26-40.
     
  4. LadyEagle

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    LOL, C4K. [​IMG] Well what about the Last Days?

    Rosell, check this out:

    http://www.pfwb.org/

    One of our BB members, Ben W., is this kind of Baptist - Pentecostal Free Will Baptist.

    I belong to an SBC church now. But it is unlike any SBC church I ever went to before. [​IMG]
     
  5. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    I am not certain that the gifts mentioned in Joel will not be repeated in the Last Days either.

    My problem comes with extra-biblical revelations, prophesyings, and teachings. I think the Holy Spirit gave us all we needed in His written Word and that and messages in prophesyings, dreams, visions, and such must be in line with it and not in addition to it.

    Again, we fight enough LE so I won't fight you on this one [​IMG] .
     
  6. LadyEagle

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    I'm not sure, but I think you just agreed with me, LOL. :D
     
  7. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Oh no, LE, not again!! [​IMG] ;)
     
  8. Rosell

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    The Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is a comforter, a revealer, an indweller and the agent of God's blessings. He is part of the triune God.

    God is beyond our full comprehension and understanding. I think the Bible writers, in describing the role of the Holy Spirit, and also in the examples that they included related to the Holy Spirit's work, left the door open for God to speak. There is no statement in the Bible that says the canon is closed. With one of the biggest difficulties in scripture interpretation being the discerning between statements that pertain to the culture of Bible times, and statements that are didactic, I think the Holy Spirit has a clear role in illumination. Of course, this would be controversial at times, since the experiences are individual ones and not shared by all.

    I've just had too many experiences of my own, in recent years, where blessings, prophetic words, healings and other signs were present and clear indicators that the Holy Spirit was at work to limit God in any way.

    BTW, when the prophet Joel gave his prophecy that is quoted by Peter in the book of Acts, it was not an "end times" prophecy. It couldn't be, because Peter interpreted Joel's words as being prophetic for his own time. That prophecy was about the day of Pentecost. This (Pentecost) is what was spoken by the Prophet Joel: In the last days, God says, I will pour out my spirit on all people... Acts 2:16-17a The "last days" from an Old Testament perspective, would have to be interpreted to mean the last days of the old covenant.

    I know there are groups who just get completely carried away to emotional extremes with this. My experiences haven't actually been that emotional, but they've been more intellectual and resulting in a spiritual, rather than an emotional, tranformation that I can't explain, but that I know is there and is from God.
     
  9. Rosell

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    I've been to an SBC church in Nashville that was pretty open to this sort of thing, and the worship was a genuine "lifting of the veil" experience. This church was booming and loving the Lord, even though many of their fellow SBCers in Nashville looked on them with suspicion.
     
  10. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Acts 2:19] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

    [Acts 2:20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    until those two scriptures are fulfilled,and as far as I know they have not been, then the gifts are still here.

    Praise the Living God!!!

    Tam
     
  11. music4Him

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    Yes the gifts are still here today! Also concider this for those who say that all gifts has ceased...... faith is one of those gifts(the 3rd gift mentioned in 1Cor.12:9). Faith...don't leave home without it!

    Also someone mentioned the last days...something that I have noticed is that Paul mentioned he was in the last days as did John in the book of Revelation spoke of the last days. Could it be possible that the last days started in the NT age after Jesus ascended up to heaven and still remains the last days now at our present time til the last trump sounds?


    Music4Him [​IMG]

    BTW, Thank you for posting the pfwb link LadyEagle. I have been searching for a Spirit filled web site with a fourm like that. [​IMG]
    (((((BIG HUGS))))))
     
  12. Grasshopper

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    Read Acts 2 again. Peter is quoting from Joel saying what would happen in the last days. Then he says they are happening now (pentecost). The last days were in the first century. Heb 1:1-2
     
  13. LadyEagle

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    I disagree. Agree with Tam Lady, because the sun didn't grow dark nor the moon turn to blood. So, they must be prophetic for the End Times (which I believe we are living in before the trumpet sounds). [​IMG]

    Grasshopper, your post about the last days occurring in the first century does not compute, LOL.
     
  14. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Amen Lady Eagle!! Some statements here just don't make sense do they??

    Tam
     
  15. Grasshopper

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    So it must be literal? Read your Old Testament sometime. That would be the books before Matthew. [​IMG]

    This type of language is all over the Old Testament when God speaks of Judgement. One of many examples is in Is. God is going to use the Medes to destroy Babylon:

    Isaiah 13

    1 The burden of Babylon , which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

    9 Behold, the day of Jehovah cometh, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger; to make the land a desolation , and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
    10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity: and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
    12 I will make a man more rare than fine gold, even a man than the pure gold of Ophir.
    13 Therefore I will make the heavens to tremble, and the earth shall be shaken out of its place , in the wrath of Jehovah of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

    You see? Its called apocolytic language and the Old Testament is full of these historical events described this way.

    By the way, the language used in Matt. 24 is speaking of the fall of Jerusalem in AD70. Just 40 years(generation) after Christ.

    It may not compute with you, but it computes with scripture.

    Hebrews 1
    1 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners,
    2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son , whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;

    Not only does Peter in Acts say he was in the last days but the writer of Hebrews says Jesus had come in the last days. So the only scriptual last days were in the 1st century.

    They sure don't. Especially when people don't know their Old Testament or the types of Hebrew Language.
     
  16. LadyEagle

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    So it must be literal? Read your Old Testament sometime. That would be the books before Matthew. [​IMG]

    This type of language is all over the Old Testament when God speaks of Judgement. One of many examples is in Is. God is going to use the Medes to destroy Babylon:

    Isaiah 13

    1 The burden of Babylon , which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

    9 Behold, the day of Jehovah cometh, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger; to make the land a desolation , and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
    10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity: and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
    12 I will make a man more rare than fine gold, even a man than the pure gold of Ophir.
    13 Therefore I will make the heavens to tremble, and the earth shall be shaken out of its place , in the wrath of Jehovah of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

    You see? Its called apocolytic language and the Old Testament is full of these historical events described this way.</font>[/QUOTE]And continuing on after the Medes conquered Babylon, the rest of the prophecy which is literal has not been fulfilled as yet:


    [19] And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.


    [20] It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.


    [21] But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.
    [22] And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

    The land of Babylon (near Baghdad) has never been NOT inhabited.

    After the judgment of God, v. 20 "it shall NEVER be inhabited...never, as in NEVER.

    It is a literal prophecy that has not been fulfilled yet.


    "hath at the end of these days" does not equal or mean the same as "we are now in the last days." That's some convoluting going on there.

    So anyhow, now that you've hjacked my thread, I guess you must be one of them there cessationist Baptists. [​IMG]
     
  17. music4Him

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    Grasshopper we are discussing the gifts of the Spirit not "FP" doctrine. Do you belive that the 9 gifts of the Spirit are still here today or not?
    BTW, The reason I asked about the last days is because of what the understanding I get when I read about the last days it seems that they started back after the ascention (around 30 A.D.)and will not end til Jesus comes back for the his bride (the church).... John wrote about it in book of Revelations (According to the history of when Revelations was written it would have been written around 95 A.D.) I guess that would mean the 70A.D theology would be out? You'd think that John would have said that 70 A.D. would had been that day if it was so?

    Now with that all said I believe we need the gifts of the Spirit and to lean on God's Word more than ever in these last days.

    Music4Him
     
  18. Grasshopper

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    Does context mean anything to you? On what basis do you separate vs. 19 thru vs. 22 from the first 17 verses?

    Careful, would you like more scriptures that would seem to indicate "forever" yet do not?

    Really? Then what end of days was the writer of Hebrews in? What last days was Peter in?


    First its Revelation not Revelations. Secondly it was written before AD70. Read Rev. 1:1 does it say shortly in yours?

    http://www.bible.org/docs/soapbox/st-essay/ragan/toc.htm


    This is what I find amusing, you tell me the last days are the entire church age and then say we need them more than ever in these last days.
     
  19. music4Him

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    First its Revelation not Revelations.
    Pick, pick, pick...You knew what I ment so please lets not try to offend. [​IMG]
    -------------------------------------------------
    This is what I find amusing, you tell me the last days are the entire church age and then say we need them more than ever in these last days.
    -------------------------------------------------
    So glad to amuse you....BTW, has Jesus returned yet?
    Secondly it was written before AD70. Read Rev. 1:1 does it say shortly in yours? Well Rev.3:11 Jesus said "Behold I come quickly".....well? What do you say about that? Is that the same as shortly?

    But, If He hasn't returned yet the gifts are still here. ;)

    Also Grasshopper~ Please do some history searching on when Revelation was written. [​IMG] Most scholars believe that the seven churches of Asia to whom John writes were experiancing the persecution which took place under Emperor Domitian (A.D. 90-95).

    Oh Yes, I belive we need the gifts all nine of them!
    Including the gift of discerment to discern false doctrines as well. ;)

    Music4Him
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    Fair enough. Just a pet peeve of mine.


    Yes

    I have done extensive research. Many before 1900 beleived the early date. Try the book "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Kenneth Gentry, it deals with all the internal and external evidence for both views. You will also find through research that most late date scholars now admit there is no evidence of mass persecution under Domitian. But there was under Nero.
     

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