Heresy Du Jour

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by The Archangel, Mar 12, 2003.

  1. The Archangel

    The Archangel
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    This thread is being started so that we don't clutter-up some of the other threads. If you come across a heresy posted by someone, bring it here and let's discuss it!

    Also, Let's keep a civil and respectful tone as we discuss. We do not want to degenerate into the ad hominem arguements. This is childish and gets us nowhere.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
  2. Wisdom Seeker

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    Oh Good Night! Are you serious? I think your asking for trouble with this thread, I really do. :(
     
  3. The Archangel

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    Since I started the post, let me be the first to address a thought which is Way out-of-step with Scripture.

    Yelsew Writes:

    Adam had a sin nature or he would not, no, could not have sinned. For All, including Adam, have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.

    This is not Biblical; it is mere speculation not based on the Biblical data. Romans 5:12 says: Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned.

    Adam is the vehicle by which sin entered the world. Was Adam created with a sin nature? No.

    He was created good along with the rest of creation. Creation, as a result of Adam's sin, fell. We now live in that fallen state.

    If God created everything that was not Adam and Eve "good" why then would "good" mean something different when it is applied to Adam and Eve. It wouldn't.

    Yelsew says:

    As babies they are sinless until they can, by an act of their will, disobey the authority over them, their parents or gardians. They are helpless unto themselves.

    How can this be, logically? You said that Adam was created with a sin-nature, yes? If that is the case and we are all his progeny, then we MUST have that nature too. Your point, while in contradiction to the Bible, is terribly illogical.

    Both of these things cannot be.

    That's all I have time for now. I'll come back to this later.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
  4. Yelsew

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    Archangel,
    You neglect all of the "before the foundation of the world" activity. Why would there be a "Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world" if it was not previously known and even planned that sin would be part of God's creation?

    Lucifer's coup attempt to usurp the Throne of God failed, therefore Sin was part of eternity before the Creation. Sin was introduced to the world by the prince of the powers of the air, Satan. Sin was introduced to man who was designed and made to be able to respond to both good and evil according to his own will.

    Does "good" mean Holy and Pure? Or does it mean "meets the design and plan of God"?

    Yes, through one man sin entered the world...everything starts somewhere. But why did it have to be through the first human if it were not planned to be introduced through the first so that "All have sinned" is paramount truth. God deliberately determined that no man would be perfect, except his Beloved Son. God made it so no created man could become God.

    I think that until you accept God and all that God does from God's perspective, you will always be held captive to your limited beliefs.
     
  5. Frogman

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    On break before going to work thought I would ask a question here of Yelsew:

    If you believe your post, why do you not accept the election of the saints which occurred before the foundation of the world?

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  6. romanbear

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    Archangel; [​IMG]
    Calvinism is a heresey. If it wasn't Calvinist wouldn't skip over the verses presented to refute it.They would honestly compare what they believe with scripture. They do not do this but rather they take a verses from here and one from over there to make it seem logical to them. They also take words out of context and change there meaning in order to make it seem true.
    Romanbear [​IMG]
     
  7. Yelsew

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    I do believe that in accordance with God's plan, he established that there would be those who participate as His tools to bring the salvation of all who believe. It is these "elected tools" that are written in scripture as being "God's chosen race", the prophets, Priests, Kings, Prime ministers, Apostles, and other leading players, who's role is to point all mankind to God so that each individual must make a choice, either active or passive.
     
  8. Frogman

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    O, you mean something like the divine right of kings and of everyone else to be serfs?

    Ok, I understand your world view completely.

    Thanks.
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  9. Yelsew

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    No you don't!
     
  10. Frogman

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    No you don't! </font>[/QUOTE]Your're right, I don't... :D
     
  11. The Archangel

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    Yes, Wisdom Seeker, you may be right. However, this thread is not intended, though it may not seem that way, to deride anyone.

    It is intended to give a forum to discuss certain things which are not necessarily related to the topic threads that they are originally found in.

    That's why I started it.

    If a majority of you-all think that I shouldn't have started this post, let me know and I'll ask that it be deleted.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
  12. Wisdom Seeker

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    I believe full heartedly that opposing viewpoints can and should be discussed with temperance and charity...but all too often, it's just not a reasonable expectation.

    Please don't take my words of caution as my vote that you have this thread deleted. See how it goes before making that decision...who knows maybe people will surprise even me. ;)

    Laurenda
     
  13. The Archangel

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    Wisdom Seeker,

    Thanks for you post. I am hopeful too!

    I just thought that this would stop some posts from becoming so clogged!

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
  14. KenH

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    Archangel; [​IMG]

    Non-Calvinism(or free willism) is a heresy. If it wasn't non-Calvinists(free willers) wouldn't skip over the verses presented to refute it.They would honestly compare what they believe with Scripture. They do not do this but rather they take a verse from here and one from over there to make it seem logical to them. They also take words out of context and change there meaning in order to make it seem true.

    (Actually, I would not classify non-Calvinism as a heresy such as would cause one to end up in hell. I just wanted romanbear to see how easy his caricature of Calvinism can be applied right back upon his soteriology.)

    Ken [​IMG]

    [ March 12, 2003, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]
     
  15. The Archangel

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    You know, Ken...I wouldn't classify non-Calvinism as a Heresy either.

    The heresy that I am mostly refering to is a misunderstanding of what Christ did on the cross (whether election or foreknowledge does not matter at this point--although it, I believe, is extreemly important in another context)

    There are some who claim a universal atonement. How does this NOT translate into universalism? If everyone's sins are paid for, why then a need for hell? Why is everyone not saved?

    I know, Ken, I'm preaching to the choir.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
  16. Yelsew

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    Sin, and the punishment thereof is not God's purpose! Redemption of mankind through the free will of the man to recognize His God, and to turn away from sin, and Believe in God's only Son is God's purpose. God's purpose applies to all mankind, and not just a "chosen few".

    Jesus recognized man's belief in him when Peter spoke for the Apostles and declared that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah. Then Jesus allowed himself to be sacrificed to atone for the sins of mankind. When on the cross, He declared that the work of God is finished! The Apostles then set out to tell the whole world about Jesus and who he is so that All mankind could believe in him and have everlasting life. All who do believe in Jesus with the belief that is sufficient to cause them to change their lives and follow Jesus as the Apostles did, receive eternal life with Jesus. No, that doesn't mean that everyone who believes must become an Apostle.

    The fact that Jesus' blood, shed for us, is the Atonement for all mankind, "the sins of the world", makes it possible for "whosoever believeth in Him" to have eternal life, because their sins are already atoned and they need not genuflect and pronounce a gross of Hail Mary's or any other pius appearing work.

    Belief in Jesus saves! Atonement is already completed. Nothing left for man to do but believe and behave in accordance with the object of the belief. That includes, confession of sins, repentence from sins, and living in accordance with the teachings of Jesus' Apostles. Confession of sin remains a requirement for cleansing from unrighteousness regardless of the fact the the sins have already been atoned. The Atonement satisfies the requirement for the punishment for sins, but it does not cleanse the individual of all unrighteousness.

    Yes! Salvation is universal in that it applies to every human who believes in Jesus.

    Yes! Atonement is universal in that it was accomplished ONCE, by Jesus, and covers the sins of the world, all mankind.

    So together Atonement for sins, a gift of God, coupled with individual belief in Jesus, is what SAVES and brings eternal life to the believer.

    There is Merit in the Universal atonement only when it is tied to individual belief in the one whose blood atones for our sins. You need both to get past the gatekeeper!
     
  17. KenH

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    Actually, it is Jesus Who saves. [​IMG]
     
  18. ScottEmerson

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    Actually, it is Jesus Who saves. [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus Christ is the only One who can bring salvation for sins. But that salvation cannot (or more appropriately, will not) be given without belief in Christ.
     
  19. Frogman

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    But that belief is taught by the Spirit of God.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  20. tyndale1946

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    If one has to believe in Christ to saved... In an eternal sense... Then what do we do with Romans 11: [28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

    [29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    [30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

    [31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

    [32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    Since both Jews and Gentile are all included in unbelief... Where does the belief come from?

    If you are saying that you can believe on your own then what are you going to do with Ephesians 2: [1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;... Now is the one mentioned in this passage truely dead as the scriptures say he is or there a bit of life in him where he can believe?... If he can believe then he wasn't dead and not only that then he needs no quickening... And if he needs no quickening he is not totally depraved... According to the verses that follows he is and it is only grace that saves him... Because unless he is totally depraved and unable to believe being dead he needs no Saviour... While we were yet in our sins Christ died for the ungodly... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ March 13, 2003, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     

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