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Holiness and Evil

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 22, 2007.

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  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    Are Holiness, purity, righteousness, at antipodes with evil and sin, or can they all coexist together. Be careful of your response. It may reach further into your mind and ideas than desire would dictate is reasonable to remain stagnate yet satisfied with ones present theology. :)
     
    #1 Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 22, 2007
  2. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Every single born-again Christian has both sides. The process of becoming holy and images of Christ is just that, a process. And until it is complete, we are people of two natures in a sense. The old one may be dead, but death only means separation, and it is still kicking. This is why Paul tells us to renew our minds and to live as followers of Christ and not as the world. If we did not have a choice, he would not have to say that.

    There is no problem with answering your question biblically, or looking around and seeing that reality corresponds exactly to the Bible.
     
    #2 Helen, Sep 22, 2007
  3. David Michael Harris

    David Michael Harris Active Member

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    How can evil be linked to God? My understanding of antipode.

    My God is squeaky clean :)

    What are you getting at mate?

    God is Holy and in Him is no wickedness. Do you believe this?

    He also tempts no-one but a person is tempted by his own evil desire. Do you believe this also?
     
    #3 David Michael Harris, Sep 22, 2007
  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: I can only hope you are not going to go down that rabbit trail of separation of the soul and spirit as some do. Possibly I need to learn patience. :)

    What part of a Christian is sinful and what part of him is holy? Me thinks you confuse both sides to the point you understand neither. Can something be two different and opposing things at the same time in the same sense?

    Someone might consider opening a thread on re-inventing the wheel. :tonofbricks:
     
    #4 Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 22, 2007
  5. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    The two are direct opposities and cannot coexist. For the child of God, the old man has a propensity to sin but the new man does not and cannot sin.

    Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
    23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
    24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    These two natures are both present but do not coexist because they are at enmity one with another.

    Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
     
    #5 Pastor_Bob, Sep 22, 2007
  6. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Well, HP, that is certainly not an attitude I would recognize in other Christians! We sin. That is that. Our hearts are changed when we are born again. Before, we are the same as God told Noah -- with our hearts always INCLINED toward evil. We can resist that inclination even as unregenerate people -- that is what general morality, ethics, and laws are all about. When we are born again, our hearts are changed and we no longer WANT to sin, but the simple truth is, we do, as long as we are in these earthly bodies. That is why John told us that if anyone says he does not sin the truth is not in him. But if we confess our sins, our Lord is faithful to forgive us.

    It is the inclination of the heart that is the first change when we are born again. After that, the Holy Spirit works within each of us (Romans 8:9) to change us into the image of Christ (Romans 8:28-30), and He is faithful to complete the good work He has begun in us (Philippians 1:6). Something that is started and still must be completed is a process. I am in process of being formed into the image of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I am not there yet, but neither am I evil.

    The soul and the spirit are separate, but that is not the point of this thread, is it? If it is, then I missed it entirely.
     
    #6 Helen, Sep 22, 2007
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: I like that response…… with some possible clarification. They are indeed direct opposites and cannot be predicated at the same time in the same sense. Jesus said, either you are for me or against me. A house divided against itself cannot stand. In this we are in agreement.

    The problem lies with what you said about “cannot sin.” Does the word ‘cannot’ eliminate the complete possibility of sin, or can the word ‘cannot’ be depicting a state of total unwillingness, such as what I might be representing when I tell you that I cannot go the places I did before, see the things I used to see, and do the things I formally did? I see a great gulf fixed between these two definitions or usages of ‘cannot.’

    If you are saying that a man cannot in the sense of i't is impossible for the new man to sin,' you have a problem to explain. “If any man sins.” Here Scripture, at least to me, clearly specifies that a believer can in fact sin. It is not impossible for him. If you separate one part of the believer from another, and claim that he is holy in one part and cannot, but sins every day in thought word and deed in another (as I have heard so many times in my life by others, although never by you) are we not guilty of departmentalizing the believer into parts, such as JJ, HOG and others have on this list in the past with their so-called separation of the soul and spirit? How do you separate the believer? Into what parts do you divide the believer so as to accommodate both for the impossibility yet possibility if not probability of sin?
     
    #7 Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 22, 2007
  8. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: The point of this thread I will explain to you. There are many, even on this list, that either believe or insinuate that God, being the First Cause of the universe therefore must be seen as the first cause of everything that follows. This false notion lurks beneath the surface of almost every thread to one degree or another. I am trying to facilitate those willing to exercise their hearts and minds in search of the truth to discover for themselves the truth of the matter, by fair examination of their beliefs as to the nature of sin and holiness, to the end that we might settle with utmost clarity in our hearts and minds the real cause of sin. Only then will we be able to effectively place the proper light upon it, and understand the heinousness of it and exactly where proper, and in light of the principles of justice, blame honestly and entirely rests.

    If a lost and dying world is going to receive the truth as to their state, they are going to have to first feel remorse before repentance, repentance being a clear condition of salvation. Until we stop placing the real cause of sin on God, or on Adam, on our parents, or our surroundings, and place it squarely upon the shoulders of the individual believer CONSISTENTLY, true salvation from sin will be in spite of our instructions, not because of it.
     
    #8 Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 22, 2007
  9. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    It absolutely does. The child of God has in him a new creature that is created after God in righteousness and true holiness. God cannot sin, therefore the new man cannot sin either.
    Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


    It is indeed possible for the Christian to sin. In fact, it is impossible for us not to sin. However, Paul makes a very clear distinction that is it the old man (the flesh) that sins (Romans 7). He states that the inward man delights in the law of God.


    There is no departmentalizing. There is not two parts of one man; there are two distinct and separate men. At salvation the new man is born or created as that new creature often mentioned in the New Testament. That new creature delights in God’s law and is created in the image of God. That new creature can testify that “old things have passed away” and “all things have become new.” The problem is that we still have the old man that is prone to sin. We still have the carnal nature that wars with the new man each and every day.
     
    #9 Pastor_Bob, Sep 22, 2007
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