How Calvinistic Are You?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Kiffen, Jan 4, 2005.

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Total Depravity

  1. Humans by Nature Are Born in Total Depravity

    98.3%
  2. Humans by Nature Are Born with a Sin Nature but have a Free Will

    1.7%
  3. Humans by Nature Are Born basically Good

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Kiffen

    Kiffen
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    Here is a poll to determine your views on TULIP.
     
  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Four point Arminian and one point Calvinistic as in eternal security.
     
  3. whatever

    whatever
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    Ray,

    According to these guys "[a]ll Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ - that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost." So, if they are correct, you can be a five-point Arminian if you want.
     
  4. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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    Hi Kiffen;
    Your poll lacks the right multiple answers. for instance these are the choices you offer;
    God Unconditional Elects some to Salvation Out of His Grace

    God Conditional Elects to Salvation those He knows will trust Christ

    Jesus Christ is the Elected One, All who believe in Him are the

    My correct answer would have been;
    God unconditionally elects all men for Salvation. If election is trully unconditional then all are elected. Unless election is by chance.
    I totally disagree with all of the tulup. Nothing of it is truth.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  5. Kiffen

    Kiffen
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    Hi ILUVLIGHT,

    There is a reason for the three choices I put up there because those are the Three Major views,

    1. God Unconditional Elects some to Salvation Out of His Grace (Calvinist View, Lutheran view as well as those who are Armyrault Calvinist 4-4.5 pointers)

    2. God Conditional Elects to Salvation those He knows will trust Christ (Classical Arminian view, also held by Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox)

    3. Jesus Christ is the Elected One, All who believe in Him are the Elect (Modified Arminian view)

    I don't think you understand your statement "God unconditionally elects all men for Salvation. If election is trully unconditional then all are elected. Unless election is by chance." actually teaches universalism. In other words every person who ever lives from Adam, Abraham, Moses, Paul, Peter, Caesar, Atiila the Hun, Hitler, Stalin, Osama Bin Landen etc... are elected and will ultimately be saved and actually ironically is a extreme extreme version of Hyper Calvinism.

    The understanding of Election is those elected will be saved (NOT possibly be saved)

    The Calvinist/Lutheran view is that God unconditionally elects out of his grace. (To me that is the Biblical view [​IMG] )

    The Classical Arminian view is that God elects those he foresees will have faith in Christ.

    The Modified Arminian view is that Jesus Christ is the elected One and all who believe in Him become the elect.

    Your view however whether you realize it or not teaches Universal Salvation to all people and that all will ultimately be saved. Certaintly you do not hold such a UnBiblical view?
     
  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Eternal security is not a Calvinistic "point." The P is perseverance of the saints, not preservation of hte saints. It means that true believers will continue in their faith.
     
  7. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Pastor Larry,

    I agree with your definition of Perseverence of the saints.

    As I came up through the system, most poeple believed Eternal Security to be more to the Calvinistic side of theological thinking.

    Not all born again Christians remain totally faithful to the Lord and their covenant with Him.

    As one of the other brethren has said, a person can remain Arminian and still believe in the total security of the believer. If this is true; it will work for me! [​IMG]
     
  8. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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    Hi Kiffen;
    What can I say if you say that only some are elected then there has to be a reason of why only a few are elected. What would that reason be? If there is a reason why everyone is not elected then it is not unconditional. It is very conditional.

    Then we have to look at what being elect or chosen really means. Calvinist here claim it means we are elected to Salvation or in other words will be saved no matter what. This can't be eletion alone but election and Salvation combined. If we're elected before the foundation of the world and Salvation is unalterably predestined as it's result, then there was no reason for Christ to be crusified. His blood did nothing for us if this is true. We are not saved by election we are saved by the blood of Christ.

    I believe election is unconditional, but for Salvation. In other words we are elected or chosen for Salvation upon condition of our trust in Him. I believe that in Romans 11:11 we are told Salvation is come unto the Gentiles. This shows the election of the rest of the world the Jews were already elect. Of course not everyone will be saved only those who place there trust in Christ. We were first chosen but in order to make that election sure we are required to trust in Christ.
    Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
    I believe you jumped to a conclusion when you said this is universalism. I'm not a universalist, Arminian, or Pelegan.
    I'm not a protestant, or reformer. What I am is a follower of Christ. I believe in and accept His God hood. I am a Christian.
    If election is unconditional then what determines who gets elected? If not all are elect.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  9. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    But all true believers will persevere. If they do not persevere, they prove that they were not reconciled.

    This is true, and at least you will be right on one point :D ... But that does not make you a one point Calvinist.
     
  10. Kiffen

    Kiffen
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    My Apologies to you. [​IMG]
     
  11. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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    Hi Kiffen;
    There wasn't anything to apollogise for. Quite the contrary, I'm sorry If I offended you in any way.
    I would encourage you to discuss doctrine more with us. I know there are a lot of people here who feel this is just a terrible discussion board.

    One can learn an infinet amount of doctrine here. Please step right in and give your oppinion
    You don't have anything to loose. But much can be gained
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  12. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia
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    Poll Results: How Calvinistic Are You? (13 votes.)

    Total Depravity

    Humans by Nature Are Born in Total Depravity 54% (7)
    Humans by Nature Are Born with a Sin Nature but have a Free Will 46% (6)
    Humans by Nature Are Born basically Good 0% (0)

    Unconditional Election

    God Unconditional Elects some to Salvation Out of His Grace 54% (7)
    God Conditional Elects to Salvation those He knows will trust Christ 15% (2)
    Jesus Christ is the Elected One, All who believe in Him are the Elect 31% (4)

    Limited Atonement

    Jesus Christ died only for the Elect 31% (4)
    Jesus Christ died for all people (individuals) but especially for the Elect 31% (4)
    Jesus Christ died for all people (individuals) 38% (5)

    Irresistible Grace

    Those God Chose, He draws Effectively to Salvation 46% (6)
    There is No Such thing as Irresistible Grace 54% (7)

    Perseverance of the Saints

    All Saints shall be Preserved and Persevere in the Faith and never be Lost 62% (8)
    I believe in Eternal Security of the Believer but not necessarily in Perseverance 31% (4)
    I believe in the Conditional Security of the Believer 8% (1)

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    So, got a label for me?
     
  13. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Yes Diane,
    You're 80% perfect.

    Only those who die from this natural life possessing faith in God are Saved!

    Referring to the Parable of the sower, Those who come to faith, become saints, those who subsequently lose their faith lose their sainthood. God's promise is that He'll never leave us nor forsake us. God's declaration is that no one can pluck us from His hand. God is faithful to his promises, but we must be faithful to his command to belief, to possess faith in him. When we fail, we lose! God does not stop us from willfully departing from HIM. From willfully "losing our faith". Hense all the warnings to Persevere, to keep the faith, to not lose sight of the goal, to abide in Christ.
    If there was no possibility of us losing our faith, those are all needless warnings, contained in a "God inspired Scripture". And then, there is the scripture that speaks of being "blotted from the book of life"

    A name for you? "Better than average Christian."
     
  14. Kiffen

    Kiffen
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    No, my friend I was not offended. I just did not want to misrepresent you. That was all! I do appreciate your attitude. I would like to discuss more but I am short on time but hopefully will later. I was just seeking to get a sampling of the beliefs on this board on TULIP. God Bless. [​IMG]
     
  15. Alcott

    Alcott
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    "How Calvinistic Are You?"

    As Calvinistic as I am predestined to be (and without change therefrom).
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    Alcott, Do you not think?
     
  17. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Pastor Larry,

    You said
    You seem to be guided more by the Westminster Confession of Faith than the Word of God. A.A. Hodge in said confession said, ‘The true doctrine is not that salvation is certain if we have once believed, but that perseverance in holiness is certain if we have truly believed. The doctrine is “not that persistent effort on our part is not necessary in order to be saved, “but that in this effort we are certain of success; for it is God that worketh in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure.’ Commentary on the Confession of Faith” and from the Westminster C.O. Faith, p. 128 by G.I. Williamson.

    Surely every pastor would hope that this above ideal would always be true but in fact Scripture does not say that all saints will abide in Christ as to their fellowship with the Lord.

    Examples off the top of my head . . . Demas and Hymenaeus and Philetus [II Timothy 2:17-21] Those Christians who become as ‘wood and earth’ are those who dishonor the Lord, which is hardly persevering in the true faith of Jesus.

    Also, Christians who are saved ‘by the skin of the teeth’ (so as by fire; at the Judgment Seat of Christ) But all true believers will persevere. If they do not persevere, they prove that they were not reconciled. [I Corinthians 3:15c,d] will not even be close to persevering in the Christian faith.

    Also, I Timothy 1:19-20 indicates that Hymenaeus and Alexander made shipwreck of their faith and even ‘blasphemed’ the Triune God, so much so that the Lord gave them up to Satan to discipline them as saved men. The Greek word for {learn} is (paidouthosin) meaning ‘to train as a child in chastisement/punishment.’ This is at the other end of persevering in the faith, which makes God’s Word right and the Westminster Confession of Faith and Calvinism wrong. It does, however, affirm the eternal security of the believer. [John 10:28-30; I Corinthians 6:17,20 & I John 5:13,18] The evil one/Devil cannot get a grip on the saved soul. [vs. 18]

    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  18. gb93433

    gb93433
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    That is true, but a discussion about that is fruitless because it is impossible for us to judge them. I believe we will have a lot of deacons and good church folks in hell.

    "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'
     
  19. Wes Outwest

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    That is true, but a discussion about that is fruitless because it is impossible for us to judge them. I believe we will have a lot of deacons and good church folks in hell.

    "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'
    </font>[/QUOTE]It is not true!
    ONLY those who die from this natural life possessing Faith in God are saved, and because man can change his mind about virtually anything, man can change his mind about God and his faith in God, and thereby lose his everlasting life (have his name blotted from the book of life).

    God allows you to change your mind and become a believer, Yes, God will allow you to change your mind, and stop believing. He will not force you to retain your faith in Him. The scriptures are full of "blessed are they who persevere to the end" kind of admonitions. If it is not possible for one to lose faith, then those admonisments are wasted effort on the part of those upon whom God breathed his inspiration.
     
  20. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    My fourth paragraph in my above or last post should have read like this. Somehow part of Pastor Larry's post was included in my transmission and it should not have appeared with mine. It was not the good pastor's fault; my mistake.

    It should have read: 'Also, some Christians will be saved ‘by the skin of the teeth’ (so as by fire); [I Corinthians 3:15c,d] at the Judgment Seat of Christ)[II Cor. 5:10] and some saved believers will not even be close to persevering in the Christian faith.

    We as brethren should always remember that it will be a fearful experience to fall into the hands of the Lord God. [Hebrews 10:31] [​IMG]

    Some Christians will be narrowly saved and will never receive their rewards from Christ, as pointed out in I Corinthians 3:15. They will be burn up. Fire is a reality and sign of purification at His hands and at the judgment of the saints.
     

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