How can God command all men everywhere to repent?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by icthus, Apr 10, 2005.

  1. icthus

    icthus
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    The passage in question:

    "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

    How can God "command", that "all men everywhere repent"? Would not such a "command" require that God has made it indeed possible for "all men everywhere" to have been atoned for in the death of Jesus Christ? To say that this refers to the "elect", is nonsense. For, why would God need to "command" that the "elect" repent, as there is no doubt that if they were "elect" in the first place, they would gladly repent.Also, it is clear that the "all men everywhere" are the same as "the world", used in the same verse. It should be noted, that the Greek for "world" is NOT "kosmos", which the Calvinist's are all to fond of twisting its meaning to refer to the "elect", as they do in John 3:16; but rather, it is the Greek "oikoumene", which, according to the Greek Lexicon by Ardnt and Gingrich, means: " world in the sense of its inhabitants, human-kind Ac 17:31" (page 564)

    I say again, it is impossible for God to command that the whole of "human-kind" repents, if indeed Jesus only died for the "elect" Surley, once again the Bible shatters the myth of "Limited Atonement"
     
  2. icthus

    icthus
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    Sorry, the passage is from Acts 17:30-31
     
  3. Wes Outwest

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    Great Post Icthus!

    I am dumbfounded that there are those who actually believe that Paul is so double-minded as to support opposing doctrines.

    Being blinded as they are by their own literal interpretation of select scriptures they claim support from, they overlook the truth completely.

    I suppose we could add this inconsistancy to the list of other faulty attributes associated with Calvinism.
     
  4. whatever

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    Your whole argument is based on the assumption that obligation to obey requires ability to obey. Can you prove that assumption?
     
  5. Wes Outwest

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    Whatever,
    What needs proof? That God created man in HIS image, and that man is therefore ABLE to obey God! God gave man the tools that he expects man to use. If those tools were not available, all knowing (omniscient) God would not insist on their use. But alas, the whole of scripture reveals that God does insist that man use what God has given him to use. God does demand of man that man obey God or suffer the consequences. A totally incapable man would have no means to obey, but a well equipped man, one made in the image of God, who has all the tools but refuses to use them is described as a rebel, a sinner. God calls us from sin into righteousness. He does not zap! us from one state to the other! He calls, we must answer....or else!
     
  6. whatever

    whatever
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    That's the very assumption for which I am asking for proof.
     
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Why don't you start by proving this from Scripture. There is nowhere that I am aware of where hte ability to obey is said to be in the image of God. Think about it ... Are babies in teh image of God? Of course, yet they have no ability to obey.

    Wes, you make this too easy. Think before you speak. It would save you from this kind of silly error.
     
  8. icthus

    icthus
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    Why don't you start by proving this from Scripture. There is nowhere that I am aware of where hte ability to obey is said to be in the image of God. Think about it ... Are babies in teh image of God? Of course, yet they have no ability to obey.

    Wes, you make this too easy. Think before you speak. It would save you from this kind of silly error.
    </font>[/QUOTE]OK Larry, so why don't you deal with my OP?
     
  9. Wes Outwest

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    That's the very assumption for which I am asking for proof. </font>[/QUOTE]How many scripture references will it take to satisfy you regarding God's created man?
     
  10. whatever

    whatever
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    That's the very assumption for which I am asking for proof. </font>[/QUOTE]How many scripture references will it take to satisfy you regarding God's created man? </font>[/QUOTE]What are you talking about? I didn't ask you to prove that God created man. I asked for proof that if man is commanded to do something then he must be able to do it.
     
  11. Wes Outwest

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    Why don't you start by proving this from Scripture. There is nowhere that I am aware of where hte ability to obey is said to be in the image of God. Think about it ... Are babies in teh image of God? Of course, yet they have no ability to obey.

    Wes, you make this too easy. Think before you speak. It would save you from this kind of silly error.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Is obedience conformity? Then it must be true that obedient man is conforming to God. Conformity to God is well within "the image" is it not?

    About babes, If they were not able to obey they would not be human. Babes are not able to jump through hoops either, Babes are not able to govern entire nations either, that is why the don't run in elections while in the womb!

    Let's keep this sane Larry. We are talking about mature human beings being able to obey God because mature human beings have all the tools and authorities to use them that God intended for man to have.

    Why did Abraham leave Ur? He obeyed God!
    Why did Abraham offer up Isaac in sacrifice to God? Because Abraham obeyed God!
    Why did Noah build the Ark? He obeyed God!
    Why did MOSES return to Egypt? He obeyed God!
    Why did Jesus die on the Cross? He obeyed the Father.
    Why did the Apostles follow Jesus? They obeyed Jesus.
    Why did Nehemiah rebuild the walls of Jerusalem? He obeyed God.

    Yes, I could continue the list, but You get the point.

    Now you should be able to tell from scripture whether or not those I mentioned save for Jesus, were regenerated prior to belief, and by what or whom.
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    That's the very assumption for which I am asking for proof. </font>[/QUOTE]How many scripture references will it take to satisfy you regarding God's created man? </font>[/QUOTE]What are you talking about? I didn't ask you to prove that God created man. I asked for proof that if man is commanded to do something then he must be able to do it. </font>[/QUOTE]That makes me want to question your intelligence.

    Let's get back to the OP.
     
  13. whatever

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    I've been talking about the OP, which was based on this same assumption. Here's the assumption directly from the OP:
    You may question my intelligence all you like. It makes no difference to me. But until you or one of your friends can prove this assumption that ability limits obligation then you have no basis to believe what you believe or to deny what we believe.
     
  14. DeafPosttrib

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    Pastor Larry,

    That is part of the five points of Calvinism is 'total inability or depravity'.

    Romans 1:20-21 say, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are CLEARLY SEEN, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so they are without excuse: Because that, when they KNEW God, they glorified him NOT as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

    This passage telling us, God did revealed his creation things to us, that we can see them very clearly. Athiests saying there is no God. BUT, they KNEW there is God, they won't honor God, they are being pride theirselves.

    God does not creat us as robot. God made us in his own image as soul, spirit, and body. God did give us the mind to making decision. Yes, of course, God gives us have ability to make decisions. If suppose God creates us a robot, then we are 'thing' have NO brain, then NO making decison, huh? We are not God's puppet or robot. God gives us the freewill to make decision. Who made Adam to ate fruit? Eve? No. Satan? No. God? No. Who made Adam to eat the fruit? Adam, himself! Obivous, he have own freewill decision to disobey God. Before Adam fell, God EXPECTED Adam to obey him, not to eat fruit. God does not force Adam do NOT fruit. God ALLOWS Adam to make his own decision to obey God or not to obey. Why? Because God was testing on Adam. God already know Adam will fell into sin. This lesson teaching us, we all do have freewill decision, you cannot deny that we all have freewill decision.

    I ask you a question, why does God created our brains? What is the purpose that we all have brain? What if suppose we do not have brain, how can we making our decision? Think about it.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

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    To Calvinists:

    Please explain to us, what the definition of 'repent' and 'believe' mean?

    How does the consequence or result comes include repent and believe from?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  16. whetstone

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    I feel that some people here strain at a gnat and yet swallow a whole camel. The entire NT is rife with foreordination (prophecy), explanation of the inability of man and (indeed!) the impossibility to be saved apart from God, the election of the saints, and the attaining unto life eternal by those saints. I may reconcile this small passage with the vast body of scripture that agrees with the Calvinist interpretation, but I cannot bring myself to thrust the remainder of scripture into the fire to accept this interpretation.

    Here is just one example that reconciles your 'problem' with the rest of scripture.

    http://www.mslick.com/desireall.htm
     
  17. icthus

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    Have you got a problem with this then? I am not a Calvinist, but I certainly have no problem with the Biblical fact that "Salvation is of the Lord". I don't recally ever posting anything that suggests otherwise. I am a "Universal Atonement" believer, but NOT "Universal Salvation". There is a clear difference that I can see, but Calvinists can't. May be they should ask the Holy Spirit to show them, rather than getting their nonsense from Calvinistic books.
     
  18. whetstone

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    I understand that there is a distinction between universal atonement and universal salvation- but if you will be consistant with your position universal atonement is actually WORSE than universal salvation. In universalism, all men died with Christ on the cross and all men will be saved with him someday. In universal atonement- all men died with Christ on the cross but some of those will actually go to hell! I would rather you'd be a universalist!
     
  19. icthus

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    You say, "I would rather you'd be a universalist!", but this position is heresy, whereas what I, and the majority of Christians believe, is based 100% on the infalliable Word of God. I pray that the Holy Spirit also shows you this great Truth, that you too may believe.
     
  20. whetstone

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    Perhaps the Holy Spirit erred in showing me that universal atonement was wrong? He was the only one that convinced me of this as I read the NT through twice last fall. I hadn't yet read a book on Calvinism OR Arminianism at that point. It's hard to overlook John 10 and other such passages. Please pray for me brother- I always appreciate it. But though I had to be wrong then or now (having opposite beliefs) I believe I was wrong before when I believed in universal atonement. To be blunt- I was emotional and unlearned.
     

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