How common is this?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by nodak, May 13, 2008.

  1. nodak

    nodak
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    We've travelled around a lot, which has put us in a lot of churches.

    Baptists may disagree a lot about religion, such as: who can baptize, who can preach, what Bible to use, Calvinist or Dispensationalist or Armenian, etc.

    One thing we never found Baptists NOT teaching is the need to be born again.

    Except for one church we visited. There they stress not believing in or talking about or having anything to do with the born again experience.

    Is this getting common, or did we just find a very different Baptist church?
     
  2. Revmitchell

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    They may cliam to be Baptist but then again Mormons claim to be Christian.
     
  3. donnA

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    They may claim to be baptist, but they aren't. being born again is one of the doctrines that set baptists apart, among others in combination make a baptist. Not, I repeat, NOT saying only baptist beleive in being born again. Just that one who does not beleive it can not be a baptist, can't even be a christian.
     
  4. abcgrad94

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    I've never heard of a Baptist church NOT teaching "ye must be born again."
     
  5. Tom Butler

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    Judge Paul Pressler, one of the architects of the conservative resurgence in the SBC, wrote in his book "A Hill on Which to Die," that as a teenager he went off to prep school in Exeter, New Hampshire.

    One of the first things he did was go to the First Baptist Church, walk into the pastor's study and announce "I am Paul Pressler. I am from Houston, Texas. I was saved when I was 10. I am going to be here for two years, and I will want to be part of this church."

    The seminary-trained pastor studied him, then said, "I don't know what you people from the South mean when you say somebody has been saved."

    Obviously, such Baptist churches are out there, and have been for a long time.
     
  6. TCGreek

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    More importantly, Are they biblical?
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    In this case they wouldnt be.
     
  8. TCGreek

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    I really can't see a church who denies the need to be born again by the Spirit of God as biblical.

    You are correct, unless we're not getting the true context.
     
  9. Joseph M. Smith

    Joseph M. Smith
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    Yes, I too wonder about the context. Was there some statement, written or spoken, which stipulated that this church disagreed with or was somehow uncomfortable with transformation? Or was that intuited from not hearing it spoken ... sometimes people need to hear "buzz words" to be certain that a certain idea is present. (Like the time someone told me he did not understand why I did not "open the doors of the church" on Sundays ... that was the way he HAD to hear the invitation!).

    Frankly I am skeptical, too, of Pressler's memory. Having been guilty of "enhancing" my childhood memories, I suspect words may have been put into the mouth of the pastor referred to.
     
  10. nunatak

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    I have to admit I get a little nervous when I hear the term "born again experience." This phrase shouts "experience" as though being born again, indeed, Christianity in general, is just that. My experience. My testimony. Me, me, me.

    We are born again, but not based on our will or decision, but on the will of God.

    I am afraid that some would correlate "born again" with "spirit-filled." And I can't help think of Charismatics when I hear/read the term "spirit filled." (Forgive me if I cause offense.) Correct me if I am wrong, but those are not the same thing.
     
  11. Revmitchell

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    Don't let Charasmatics scare you away from the Holy Ghost.
     
  12. nunatak

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    good grief
     
  13. John of Japan

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    There have been and are many such "Baptist" churches. Just consider the very existence of the Conservative Baptists, born out of a split with the Northern Baptists (now American Baptists) over the matter of a lack of doctrinal qualifications for the Northern Baptist missionaries.

    My mission board grew out of that controversy. Here is our history, with just a little bit about how the controversy came about:
    http://www.baptistworldmission.org/BWM/Pages/History_of_BWM/History_of_BWM.html

    There remain many American Baptist churches which are apostate and do not believe in being born again. Consider the current controversy in the denomination about ordaining homosexuals as preachers. Here is one link on that: http://www.tacomachristiannews.com/Articles/Articles Oct05/Art_Oct05_11.html
     
  14. nodak

    nodak
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    Context:

    SS class led by youth pastor. Church did not advertise any connections and did emphasize considering themselves "in the footsteps of the Puritans."

    Youth pastor was giving his testimony that he had been born again as a kid in a church in, I think, Indianapolis.

    Then he came to this church and realized if he was ordained for heaven he was gonna go to heaven, born again or not.

    We've been in Calvinist churches and sure never heard that idea, so I figure it wasn't calvinism.

    Any ideas what it was? I still have old friends attending there regularly and they tell me the idea is not to set up a two tier system of born again members or not born again members. That born again folks may be ordained for hell and non born again may be ordained for heaven, and that is all that counts.
     
  15. Joseph M. Smith

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    Then it is not classical Calvinism, but a kind of pop-style hyperCalvinism, in which logic is allowed to reach untenable conclusions!
     
  16. Cutter

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    Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    You cannot be born again and not have the Spirit and you can't have the Spirit without being born again. Just as well, I do not believe Christians have various degrees of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Either you have it or you don't. When we are in the flesh we do the works of the flesh and when we are in the Spirit or being led by the Spirit, we do the works of Christ. There is only one person I read of in scripture that was always Spirit filled and walking in perfect harmony with God the Father.

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].

    John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
     
  17. Crabtownboy

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    It all depends on how we view this question.

    Was it that he did not know what saved means?

    Was it that he wanted to see what "I was saved" meant to Pressler?

    Was it that he wanted to see what the phrase means in Texas or the South?

    We really do not know the intent behind the question. If I were a pastor and someone approached me with this statement I would ask a few questions to see determine their understanding of the topic.

    I have never been a part of a Baptist church where salvation is not taught and preached.
     
  18. John of Japan

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    Long, long before the Charismatics got ahold of the term in the 1960s, good men taught the fullness of the Holy Spirit--without tongues-speaking. I have books on it by John R. Rice (1940s), R. A. Torrey (1927), H. A. Ironside (no date, maybe 1940s), A. J. Gordon (1894), S. D. Gordon (1903), James McConkey (1897) and many others. Since the Bible commands us to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18), I highly recommend that you study deeply the doctrine, and embrace it as true. :saint:

    For the teaching of famous evangelist John R. Rice (1896-1980) on the fullness of the Spirit, you can see several of his pamphlets on the subject (and also one opposing tongues) at: http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/RiceJohn.html
     
  19. nunatak

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    Thank you for the link. I couldn't find a publication date for the tongues article. Was it written before 1945?
    Also, he alludes to a cult several times. Any idea who/what he is referring to?
    He also says that the proof that a soulwinner is filled with the spirit is that they win souls. I don't get that. I don't consider myself a soulwinner. *ducks*
    But I do desire to follow Christ.
     
    #19 nunatak, May 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2008
  20. John of Japan

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    You're entirely welcome.
    I don't have the tongues thing (it was a long pamphlet) except included in his book on false doctrine, which doesn't give a date for that chapter. However, my memory says it was late 1940's.
    I'm not sure. Which article was that in? I can't find any mention of a cult in his articles on the Holy Spirit or soul-winning on the website.
    I think the major passage on this view is Acts 4:31--"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness." When you are filled with the Spirit you will witness with boldness, and someone will eventually be saved.

    You might be blessed by a recent thread on the BB about the meaning of soul-winning at: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=48361. You would be even more blessed to see God use your witness to save a soul! What a great privilege that is!

    I don't subscribe to the common view among evangelical writers that the fullness of the Spirit is simply being controlled by the Spirit, and leads to a better Christian life. Those results come from walking in the Spirit (Gal. 5:16-26). The fullness of the Spirit is a different matter.

    You might be helped by a thread not too long ago on the fullness of the Spirit at: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=48135
     
    #20 John of Japan, May 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2008

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