How Dare You....

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by ktn4eg, Mar 14, 2007.

  1. ktn4eg

    ktn4eg
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    Now that I've got your attention.....

    Actually I've got some questions about tithing. However, this thread's title comes from a statement I once heard on one of my many travels.

    Seems that this IFB pastor whose church I happened to visit one time spent part of his message on tithing.

    He was of the opinion that the tithe belongs solely to the local church of which a person is a member. But then he went on to make a couple statements I've never heard of before and for which I'd appreciate your comments.

    "Your tithe should be the very first check that you make each week." (As I recall, he related that to the concept of the first fruits mentioned in the OT law.)

    But then, he went on to make this statement:

    "And it should also be for the largest amount of all the checks you write out that week! How dare you as a Christian give more to man than you give to God!!" [Emphasis mine]

    That really threw me for a loop! He never backed that statement up with any relevant scriptures, and I'm still puzzled about that remark.

    Any of my BB friends care to comment on these statements this preacher made?
     
  2. annsni

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    If he had Scriptural support then I'd say more power to him.

    But since Scripture doesn't say anything about that, then he's wrong. I know there's argument about a tithe - we tithe all of our income to the church that we are members (and DH is a pastor). But when we had a mortgage, that check was significantly more than that. Hey - our PROPERTY TAXES are more than 20% of our income!! The joys of living on Long Island.
     
  3. Alcott

    Alcott
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    That guy's a stupid fraud. He doesn't know what everyone owes and to whom. Maybe he should be told the church is never to write any check bigger than his salary or expense check unless it's to another church, a mission organization. or a food/relief supplier... for how dare that church write a bigger check in given week or month to a man than to God?!?
     
  4. johnp.

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    In the UK income tax is taken before one receives one's wages. First fruits goes to the government here on the whole and it will be more than 10%.

    VI. Of the Sufficiency of the Holy Scriptures for Salvation.
    Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation.
    http://anglicansonline.org/basics/thirty-nine_articles.html

    I do believe the tithe should be the first thing seen to but that is not always possible. As long as the money is set aside, but it has a tendency to dribble away. :)

    john.
     
  5. gb93433

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    A lot of things are said from pulpits in an effort to manipulate and play the role of junior Holy Spirit in the lives of believers.

    Obviously that man has never been in business. When I was in business the largest checks I wrote were to suppliers. I kept a small portion of the total bill I presented to the customer to live on and give.
     
  6. Jon-Marc

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    If I were financially wealthy I might be able to afford to give to God as much as I give my creditors. I pay rent, utilities, groceries, medical bills and other things. I just paid out over $700 on my car for brakes and tires. I couldn't afford to give that much to my church. I do give 10% of my retirement check though.
     
  7. guitarpreacher

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    He's making a faulty assumption, that I give God 10% and I keep 90%. In reality I give the FIRST 10% and that shows that I recognize that all of it is God's. I'm not dividing it up, it's all His. When I make my mortgage payment, I honor God in that I'm providing shelter for my family. When I buy groceries I honor God by feeding my family.
     
  8. Brother Bob

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    Is all the money given to poor countries which come from our taxes considered as tithes? (Billions or is it Trillions)?
     
  9. Steven2006

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    Good post, I appreciate the thoughts.
     
  10. Steven2006

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    I would say no, because they are not given in Christ name.
     
  11. ccrobinson

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    The preacher in question is completely wrong and it starts with how he's defining the word "give".

    Give - to present voluntarily and without expecting compensation

    I do make a voluntary payment to the bank, but I expect to receive something in return. Namely, that I will continue to live in my house without them repossessing it.

    I do make a voluntary payment to the phone company, but I expect to receive something in return.

    How dare that preacher try to redefine the word give.
     
  12. gb93433

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    Considering politics, who knows whether it is to help a country or to extract all we can for our own greed.
     
  13. amity

    amity
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    I don't believe in tithing. I do not believe that giving anything at all to the church is obligatory.

    Plus whatever could a church possibly do that was scriptural with all that money, if everyone gave the church more than they paid for rent, even? Should most of the money we set aside for service to God even be given to a church? What about the very many people who need to be fed and clothed?
     
  14. annsni

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    Giving to the church is entirely Scriptural and what a church can do with "all that money" is a lot!! Many churches cannot support their pastor full-time so he has to be torn by getting an outside job. The church could start ministries in their neighborhoods - after school tutoring programs, soup kitchens, food pantries, crisis pregnancy centers, support groups, free or low cost counselling, housing help, etc. Then there is missions outside the area - in other parts of the country or other parts of the world. What about assisting young people in being able to go to seminary to become future pastors? There's SO much that the money can be used for. I doubt there are many churches who have more money than is needed.
     
  15. bapmom

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    great post Ann!

    I almost laughed when I read the question about what could a church do with "all that money"! Almost.........

    ideally our churches should be doing that work to help the poor in its communities, if it can. However, often the meager tithe a church does get barely pays for the lights and utilties of its own facilities. Churches have staff to pay, run ministries which require some monetary support, and OUGHT to be supporting and sending as many missionaries as they can.
     
  16. amity

    amity
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    Giving to the church is entirely scriptural, I agree. But there is no set formula for how much to give. It is "as a man purposeth." If my neighbor was in need perhaps I should give less to the church to help them out? Does saying "I gave to my church" diminish our individual responsibility to feed and clothe those who have need?

    And the purpose of my money to the church should be to support the church itself, not auxillary programs. That includes those who may be in need among the church membership, but I don't see one iota of scriptural support for a church having a calling to do outreach programs in the community. That is MY responsibility. If the church takes that job on, it will become bureacracy heavy and stop fulfilling its prime job, which is to worship and disseminate the word of God. The basic financial needs of a church are so few, basically just to keep the lights on and the grass mowed. If we try to "take on the world" then the church becomes driven by institutional imperatives and becomes a charity instead of a church. I also do not see scriptural support for a full-time ministry. No preacher salaries.

    Look, let's say my personal income is $25,000 a year. Should I give $2500 a month to my church? What if all other people who have a similar income gave the church a similar amount? 30 members x $2500 a year is $75,000!
     
    #16 amity, Mar 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2007
  17. bapmom

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    amity,

    im sorry, I forgot you don't believe in missions. This is the fundamental difference we are seeing come out here. To me a church's main job is to go and tell the gospel, and send other people to go even further to tell the gospel, as well as training those new converts to go out and tell. This doesn't preclude the individual's responsibility to do this as well.

    But sending people to the mission field takes money, even if it is only the mission field of the next town over.

    If you don't believe in this, then I can definitely see why you'd wonder where all the money would go.
     
  18. annsni

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    Amity - What is the purpose of the church? Why are you supporting a church if it's not for missions and furthering the Gospel?

    As for a full time minister - do you know how much time it takes to run a church of any size? Our church has 9 full time pastors and 36 additional staff - full and part time. My husband did 2 years as a pastoral intern while he still had his computer consulting business and let me tell you, it was hard!! Even now, often he has no "down" time to speak of - it's just too busy! Our church has about 900 adults and our senior pastor has figured that a church needs about 1 pastor for every 100 people in order to meet the needs of the congregation and I can see he's about right. I can't imagine any of the ministries getting done with any of our pastors having other jobs to deal with. I think a full-time pastor is a necessity and a church should be able to support him so that he doesn't HAVE to find a job to be able to support his family in the area where he lives.
     
  19. amity

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    Furthering the gospel does not necessarily entail supporting missions. My church has 50 people. Our pastor is retired from a career as a stockbroker, but if he was not he would be a tentmaker or something! On the other hand, the church does give him money, but not a regular salary.
     
  20. annsni

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    In our church, we not only support our pastors full-time, we try to fully support our missionaries too - and the majority of them are home grown. Missions is our way of spreading the gospel "to the ends of the earth". I can't see a church NOT supporting missions!!
     

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