How Dare You....

How refreshing

 

Um, spread the Gospel?

Paul and Barnabas et al were sent to areas that had Christians...why did they go there/stay there?

 

pinoy,

you can't just say "that's out of context" and then nothing else. How does the context of that passage change what I said in your viewpoint?

Please, enlighten me............

 

pastor TinyTim, I so enjoy your posts! Thank yoU! Im definitely one of those mission-minded follk........we're still out here!

 

rbell, I see you may also believe the Christian church was started by Christ, as shown in Acts 11. The Christian church could not start until it included the Gentile gospel, that included the Jew.

 

johnp

no, Id not say it's Christian imperialism. I WOULD say that in some cases it is a case of "we've always done it this way-ism".....BUT, God is the One who calls missionaries to go to the foreign field. Absolutely I am for foreign missions! But we also need to look at supporting some national pastors in places where the need is so great, but the living is so hard. But whatever you do....do not stop supporting our own missionaries from here!

a missionary is one who crosses cultural and/or physical boundaries to bring the Gospel of Christ to the lost. This can mean across the street, or across the nation, or across the planet.


ittut....for heaven's sake......the "Jewish Jerusalem Kingdom at hand church"? Ya know, there are days...........

alrighty, ittut, you do realize God smacked them upside their collective heads for refusing to preach to the Gentiles? I mean have you forgotten the whole passage about Peter's vision, call not thou unclean that which I have called clean....I mean God repeated it three times for Peter......
Remember how then James said that obviously God had visited the Gentiles with His Holy Spirit? Ok, it's late and my inherently sarcastic nature is taking over.......so ittut, I hope I misunderstood you and if I did I apologize in advance....but Im gettiing the impression you think the gospel is not for gentiles..........or that Jews never preached to gentiles. Not sure what you'd call Paul then......he was a Jew.


and let me tell ya, to anyone who would dare call a missionary a "moochinary"......you'd better remember that he/she/they are out there doing a job you will not or cannot do. And you'd better be prepared to answer to God for such slander of your Christian brethren, some of whom are stronger, tougher, and far more self-sacrificing than you could ever imagine.

:godisgood: :wavey:

 

Oh, boy...Where do I begin?

• Sunday schools are suspect now, too? I guess it is wrong to gather together and teach God's Word. Maybe we could do it from a stage. WAIT, sorry, I forgot...
• Hirelings? So, Amity...are missionaries hirelings? Or are ministers hirelings? You lost me. If the first is your point...I can think of about a hundred missionaries you owe a HEARTFELT apology to. If the second is your point...same thing. If I misunderstood you, please make your point clear to me.
• "The ministry becomes a career." Is this a statement against full-time ministers? I certainly hope I'm mis-reading what you mean here. I will fully admit defensiveness on that...because if you mean it that way, it then becomes a statement on your part doubting my call to ministry. And though I don't answer to you, I don't enjoy my call being questioned. Thus, I hope I've missed your point there.
• So no one should exercise the gift of administration? I'm sure that spiritual gift was in there by accident.
• Church and business are not synonymous. Of course, no one has suggested they are. They have differing ultimate goals. But to say that NOTHING that happens in a church should happen in a business is ridiculous. A business takes in money, and disburses it. So does a church. (If you doubt that, read Acts, and Paul's letters). A church divides up responsibilities according to one's strengths...most businesses do as well. Businesses and churches have leaders, laborers, supporters.
• You've spoken several times about thinking that big churches are wrong. Aside from a lack of scriptural support for your position ("proper church size" is not addressed in Scripture), I would assert it is entirely possible for a church to be large, yet still vibrant and reaching out to others:
  • Our church has started (or assisted in starting) several other churches in our area. We are about to start another one.
  • If a church looks at other God-serving churches as "competition," or said churches begin to "compete" over Christians...there's a problem. One reason I love what we're doing is that our church partners with others. We pray with other churches. We are excited when God is moving and working in other churches in our general area.
  • Part of what God expects from us, as a larger church, is that we will use our larger resources to assist others in struggling areas. That we will offer our time, talents, money, and other resources to help other churches in need, other missionaries in need, etc.
  • As you condemn the idea of missions, and churches supporting missionaries, read Philippians 4 and get back to me. I would think that said Scripture would pose all kinds of problems for your position.

Obviously, you would be incredibly unhappy in a church like mine. But based on some of your posts, I'm not sure how much happier you would have been in some New Testament churches.

 

rbell, I was going to try to respond to your post, but its late and I can't even focus my mind on it. So just accept my apologies if you are offended.

A church is an association of people who gather for worship and fellowship. All these other activities might be fine in another context. But they are not scripturally a part of church.

You disagree. Fine. I have no expectation that we will agree on this one. All we can do is try to explain why we believe the way we do.

 

Yes, agree there are days like today, and the ancient of days instituted the days. Just take a moment please to see what gospel was preached by John the Baptist, Jesus, and His Apostle's. I'm only trying to point out the gospel that they taught and preached to the Jew, then Israel, before Damascus Road occurred.

Hope you won't mind just a few verses to show there really are days we must consider:
Mark 1:1-5, "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2. As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5. And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins."

Verse 15 of Mark 1, "And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

All I'm saying is what I see. I see the beginning of the gospel of our Lord in the above and it is the gospel (at hand) that was given to a man John The Baptist. That gospel shows to be for the Jew, those of Judaea which houses Jerusalem. As we read further in scripture we see Israel, even the Samaritans are included and Jesus then preaches the "Kingdom to come". Then when we get to Damascus Road we see God chooses another man to preach the gospel to the world. We see the Gentile, and now all of the Israelites can be saved just as we Gentile's.

He shows, and I see our Day did come, but not before Christ Jesus speaks from heaven.

But Peter did not know what it meant……..until God stopped Peters tongue from preaching the circumcised gospel to a Gentile (verses 43, 44, and 45). That gospel is the very same gospel that Christ gave to Paul and Paul had been preaching for some time the gospel of grace of believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will have remission of sins. This is not what Peter was preaching in Acts 2:38, or afterwards until Christ sent Peter to clear the way for the gospel of Paul, just as John the Baptist had for Jesus.

I see no sarcasm, and I intend none. I believe we each are just showing our position in the Kngdom of Christ. It's just that scripture presents two foundations are being laid on the foundation of Jesus Christ. That of Peter of the Kingdom Church, the "Kingdom is at hand", then the Kingdom that will come".

Then that of Paul of the Body Church, the "Body of Christ", made possible as shown in scripture of coming through faith. This is why I am of "pretrib" as I look for the "rapture" which will come before the Kingdom. We do not find in scripture, until Paul, the "Body of Christ", or how the Gentile is saved to enter into the presence of God. It is by the Grace of God, through faith. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ from heaven.

Noted Christian friend. I do, really, appreciate your concern for me.

Please understand I have never said a missionary is a "moochinary", or agreed with a post that would indicate such a thing. Moochers don't work.

 

Hello rbell.

Why do we send missionaries out to places that have Christians already?

To train up Christians for them to stand on their own?

Jesus said let them come to me. At the end of the first 45 minutes of Sunday service children are sent out of the Church to learn on their own. Paul taught all without sending the kids out.

Hello bapmon.

So am I. We help to support a family in France and whether they are successful, in numbers, or not isn't the issue.
The African Church is very strong in the Lord I fail to see why we send them there. It is like the charity that goes there. It doesn't seem to help but it keeps them as they are.

So I was a missionary! And discussion forums. Why then are those that are off to foreign parts feted and the poor old door knockers Cinderellas?
I remember a big fanfare about a family we sent to Africa from my first Church. We was shown the brick house where they were to live and the three servants waiting for them.

Maybe the money would be better spent electronically these days. We can enter countries that forbid us physically.

john.

 

ittut, I understand your post (I think), but I do not understand how it fits in this discussion.......maybe it's just me..........

I did not mean to imply that you called anyone "moochinary". That portion was directed elsewhere, more of a general statement to others who "know who they are". Someone else referenced the fact that missionaries are sometimes called that, and I thought Id say somethin' too.

 

1. This is eisegesis. If you take this passage to mean Sunday School is wrong, you're way, way off. You're reading your preference into the text.

2. Kids are "sent off" to learn on their own? Um...they have a teacher. Just as the little ol' ladies do. Teachers of the Word...now there is Scriptural precedent for that.

3. None of us have any idea whatsoever what methodology Paul used. He may have "taught all" together. He may have taught kids and adults at separate times. He may have used Southern Baptist quarterlies and the KJV. Well, two out of three ain't bad. :laugh:

I can't help but believe that God is pleased that we are...

• Teaching His Word. We do it in a larger corporate setting, but we also do it in a smaller group setting...where discussion is more likely, mentoring and accountability can be more targeted, and the teaching takes place within the contexts of relationships.
• Teaching His Word to children. I doubt God is saying, "No no no...I won't bless that. The kids are in a separate Room! What an abomination!" Scripture doesn't say, "God's Word will not return to Him void...unless the kids are in a different room. Then you're outa luck."
• Don't want to do SUnday School in your church? Fine. As long as the Word is being taught, you're fulfilling what you should be doing. I don't condemn you for doing it differently, because there's no scripture that condemns you. However, that cuts both ways.

Have a good one. :wavey:

 

You might as well have said, "MOOCHINARIES."

Don't knock it if you haven't done it. Don't sit in your nice comfortable air-conditioned house in the USA, with dependable electricity, clean water from the tap, able to see your family and call them at will, and pick on some missionary just because they don't fit your stereotype of what a missionary should be and how they should live. (BTW, those 'servants' were probably there because they WANTED to be there. They probably appreciated the ministry of the missionary so much that they wanted to take on some tasks for the missionary like housekeeping and shopping, so the missionary could focus on the ministry. You ever tried to keep a house clean in a foreign country or shopped in one?? Yeah, I thought so!)

Oh, and I should say, we don't exactly live in a mud hut here in Mexico either, we live in a concrete house just like 99% of the people we are trying to reach do. We also don't have any servants although we did have a lady from the church come and clean our house once a week because she wanted to do it. She since has moved to another city so we do the job ourselves- not an easy task in a dusty place. Actually it is a daily job.

YOU haven't left your loved ones- your grandchildren, your aged parents, your college-aged kids- thousands of miles away. Yes I thank God for computers, at least we can keep in touch better than back in the old days. But I sure miss those hugs and seeing my grandson grow up.

I could go on but I need to go and lay some concrete block for our church building. You have touched a nerve here, sir.

 

I agree here, and I am one that supports electronic ministry.
But there is nothing like in your face missions.

 

In Acts 13 Paul and Barnabas sending church was the church in Antioch. Even though called by God, they didn't do this completely separate and independent of the church.

 

I do not see scriptural support for missionism. You are one of the very few who has ever deigned to offer any scripture to support it, and I gotta respect you for that!

But still I don't agree, and the debate has turned ugly (not through you though), so I am out of it.

 

Hello bapmom.

It might and it might not but the idea of segregation is what I do not like.
As for me, I teach my kids my beliefs as well as allowing them to leave the service. I remember my youngest girl used to stay for some sermons. As soon as my son says he wants to stay in then he will stay in. I'm not really a stickler but Paul taught the kids as did Jesus, I think they are sent out because they are honest and probably wouldn't put up with 1 hour sermons.

Because they need nothing more, and certainly they don't need less, than to hear the gospel and the teaching as the adults do. It's a second best. Like a paraphrash rather than the full monty. Comic book.

I do but as I said, it's a paraphrased.

It stronger than it is here in England. I know there are places but where's the Africans? Why send someone half-way round the world when they don't even bother knocking on doors next door to them?
If an evangelist gains a soul he should teach that person to gain another and the two of them can go for four. Instead of that you have the big white middle class man leading from the front while the sheep stay penned in the pews.

I'd understand if we had just stumbled upon Africa but we have been going there for centuries to little effect. Same as our charity. Why are we still drilling holes for them? Can't they be trusted with a drill or a bible?
I'm not against mission or charity but it is about time results were calculated in aggressive sheep and not how many missionaries we can send.

If it had been efective we wouldn't need to still be going would we? I'm not saying electronics for Africa but for Saudi Arabia.

China saw a great success. I remember hearing the adventures of the evangelist smuggering bibles into the Soviet Union. As I said, I am not against mission, Christianity is about spreading the word.

Why not gather some Ghanaians bring them to you and teach them? Then send them back. That would also be mission. I know there are Christians in Burkina Faso because we support some local workers there.

No I know, and the same goes for the Archbishop of Canterbury living in a palace. What is the effect of the big white man in the brick house? 1 Cor 9:20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
Better to make tents and live in them than to be waited on by those I've come to be with.

What you think?

john.

 

Hello rbell.

I see no call to sunday school. What text?

I fear we might be separated by a common language. What little ol' ladies? Where did they come from?

Show me where he didn't. MT 19:14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.
Because if we have to be like the children to receive the truth then the children are native to that.

I have said nothing like that.

My Church does Sunday school. We support at least one family in France and we have do's in the town center, one coming this Easter.
It does not cut both ways because if you do a thing then it should be scriptural and taking the kids out isn't scriptural is it? Samuel had no bother with the Lord and what He was saying.

Thank man, bless you.

john.