How Dead are Your Logs?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 24, 2006.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    There are many theories and notions floating around in the Church as to men likened unto dead logs floating down the river of life helpless, unable to respond even to God’s offer of salvation without first being regenerated. Those holding to such a view generally maintain that He has chosen some men apart from any and all actions or efforts on their part, and that God empowers those that He has foreordained to salvation with the power to be able to respond to His predetermined plan.

    We also have on this list those proclaim that men are all born in a state likened unto a dead log floating down a stream, basically the same at this point in their theology, as the Calvinistic model, but state that God has granted to ALL men an ability at some mysterious point and time in life which includes the power and abilities requisite of choosing God’s offer of salvation. Great effort is made to develop a Scriptural basis for the belief that ALL men have been granted the necessary power and abilities to either choose or refuse the offer God has to offer, again granted to ALL men.

    As I lay upon my bed last night, a Scripture came to me that seems to clearly debunk both ideas, especially in the area of the notion of men being likened unto dead logs that must be empowered by God to receive salvation. Read carefully the following passage and see if problems do not arise in your mind as well as to the validity of either of the views in question.

    Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, TO ‘THEM’ GAVE HE POWER to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name:

    It would appear to me that this passage clearly places the ‘receiving’ of the offer of Christ antecedent to ‘receiving the power’ to become the sons of God. If men are but dead logs floating down the stream of life, unable without special empowerment from God to enable them to receive His offer of salvation, regardless if the empowerment is just to the elect or made provisionally to all, any such notion is in direct antipodes with the plain teaching of this text. Does not this text make it clear that men clearly have the power requisite of ‘receiving God’s offer’ as sinners, and that the power they receive is not ability to receive, but power to be transformed ‘subsequent’ to receiving this gift of salvation from God? How can a dead logs receive Christ, ANTECEDENT to receiving the power to become the sons of God?
     
  2. Brother Bob

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    Job 14:7For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
    As long as the log exists there is hope. It is not that dead, it just needs a little moisture but the right kind of moisture. Its called "Water of Life".

    I don't believe that doctrine those dead in sins cannot hear God and believe in Him and let His Spirit lead them to repentance, or follow the spirit of the devil and keep floating down the river as a dead log.


    1 John 2;

    1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    2: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
     
    #2 Brother Bob, Sep 24, 2006
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  3. Jim1999

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    If that "dead" log can sprout new branches, it isn't dead. There may be live branches on that log and they may grow, but the dead log is dead.

    Your demonstration is a good foundation for universalism.

    Just like there is no fire in hell. It really won't burn. It will just warm your hands as you get close to it.

    I have less difficulty with the fact that the blood on the cross is efficacious for the elect of God. Sufficient for all, but efficacious for the intended. The remainder left in their spiritually dead estate.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: I do not follow you here. Can you explain how it lays a foundation for universalism IYO?
     
  5. Brother Bob

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    This is being used as a "sinner dead in trespasses in sin". That is the case I am making about the dead log. Even the Calvinist agree that the dead log can resist they just can't believe, or at least the ones who I have debated with believe they can resist. You can call it universalism if you want but I am talking about all have a chance to be the "believer" and that is not universalism.

    Anyway, I think that was the question of the OP, "how dead are your logs?"

    1John 2:
    2: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
     
    #5 Brother Bob, Sep 24, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2006
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Thanks Brother Bob for the explanation. I understand what Jim was referring to now.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Even the Calvinist "deadlog" will "be able to choose life" if "DRAWN to God by Christ" according to their views of John 6.

    So in John 12:32 when we see that "God draws ALL mankind unto Him" we have the perfect ground for Arminian and Calvinist agreement.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Jim1999

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    The ultimate conclusion of Arminianism is universalism.

    Yes, the "dead log" of the lost soul comes to life because God breathes into him the grace to believe. He is brought to life in Christ..hence the "new birth". It is not the same as free will choice and some mythical decision.

    To hold such a view means there can be no such thing as eternal life, If a man can will himself into salvation, he can will himself out of it. No more eternal life, my friends. Sorry....logic does have its consequences.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  9. Brother Bob

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    You can spin it anyway you want and then comes the Scriptures;
    1John 2:
    2: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

    John 3:16 You will never be able to spin this one. Also, The Grace of God which bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto all men.

    Seems to me at one time we were all dead logs in sin but the Spirit of God strives with man and so does the spirit of satan but God in His Sovereignity made man with a heart and mind to choose. So man comes to a crossroads and man chooses which road. Cast your net on the right side Jim. God called me to preach repentance to a lost and dying world and that is exactly what I am going to do.
     
  10. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: I just wonder what your late good friend A.W. Tozer would share with you concerning your approach to theology?
     
  11. Jim1999

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    Dr. Tozer and I did not share theology any more than we shared denomination. These things do not affect fellowship in Christ.

    He followed the traditional thinking of turn of the century (1900's) that foreknowledge was the basis of election.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Only if you try to "insert Calvinism" into the Arminian acceptance of God's Word where God says "I WILL DRAW ALL MANKIND to Myself".

    If you LEAVEN ARminianism AS Arminianism - then not only does it debunk Calvinism by accepting God's Word as it reads - it also refutes universalism.

    Perfect!!

    When God ENABLES - are you saying those ENABLED are STILL INCAPABLE of choosing life?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: As I recall he was Christian Missionary Alliance was he not?
     
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Where does Scripture state that God must regenerate the soul before it can have the power and or ability to receive Christ? Does not the verse I quoted say something clearly to the contrary? Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, TO ‘THEM’ GAVE HE POWER to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name:
     
  15. Brother Bob

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    It scares me when someone calls it a mythical decision to be able to believe that Jesus died for the sin of the world. Preach the Gospel to EVER creature and he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. The whole Bible is about men turning to God and forsake the devil. I just don't understand and I mean no harm whatsoever. peace,
    You can say "I don't see it that way" or something to that effect but you could be wrong and to call it mythical is not good.
     
    #15 Brother Bob, Sep 24, 2006
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  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: In all due respect to my elders, I would simple say, Eph 4:20 But ye ( in this case 'we') have not so learned Christ;"
     
  17. BobRyan

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    "Not regenerate" but supernaturally draw and enable.

    In Rom 3 we see that "NO one seeks after God - not even one" - apart from that Drawing of God that was put there in Gen 3 "I will put war between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent".

    God's supernatural "convicting" and supernatural "drawing" are all needed for the Rom 3 person to be convicted of their sin AND to be enabled to choose life. And so He does this for ALL.

    But being convicted and enabled - will they ALWAYS choose life?? apparently not.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Brother Bob

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    You have to know who was profitable at one time and who was in the way and went out for them to become unprofitable and to go out of the way it seems to me. It was Israel that did these things. The Gentile never had them until the middle wall of partition was broken down. It says both Jews and Gentiles are under sin but the Gentiles were always under sin before. It was Israel that went astray. I think it talking about trying to be justified by the Law. I may be wrong but thats how I see it. I think that is what the whole chapter of Romans 3 is about.
     
    #18 Brother Bob, Sep 24, 2006
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  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: And all this time some have been trying to say they were born that way. :confused:
     
  20. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Are they moral agents or operating with necessitated impulses prior to this enabling? Have they ‘gone astray’ or were they born in such a necessitated state of evil that no choice was available to them? If they were born sinners, does this drawing come at first light of moral agency?

    I believe you are confusing God enlightening the conscience and subsequent conviction with the gospel. Heathen who have never heard of Christ do the things in the law and have become a law unto themselves. Heathen that have never heard of Christ feel conviction. Certainly conviction is a drawing from God via the conscience, but that is not the same as the message of salvation.

    What does this ‘enabling’ entail? What ability do they not have as sinners to repent and receive Christ if in fact the message of salvation is heard? Again I point you to the verse in the OP Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, TO ‘THEM’ GAVE HE POWER to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name:

    It would appear to me that the enabling to become sons of God comes subsequent to receiving Christ, not before.
     
    #20 Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 24, 2006
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