How did sin originate

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Rich_UK, Dec 3, 2004.

  1. Rich_UK

    Rich_UK
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    Heres something that confuses a little. When was the first ever sin? Was it the rebellion that lucifer committed when he was in heaven, or was "sin" something that was started by humans when eve in Gen 3:6 when she ate the fruit? I know that lucifer was cast out of heaven before eve sinned but I'm not sure if Lucifer, being an angelic being at the time, "sinned" in the same sense of the word that we know today.

    Now, onto my point....

    Regardless of who sinned, the fact is that God can't sin, but, having free will at the start, man had the capacity to sin if he so chose, which he did.

    This being so, did God invent sin? He created everything right, so would this include every idea, or thing, from the beginning of time, including sin? If not then it would mean that man (or lucifer) started something out of nothing.....this seems like an attribute that only God can have...starting something, or creating something out of nothing.

    I hope you don't get the impression that I'm blaspheming by asking did God create sin...I don't believe He did, but I just don't know how to word it properly.

    The reason I ask is because I would like a concise way to explain it to somebody when they ask me who created sin, or the idea of sin..the programme in our DNA that gave Adam and Eve the capacity to sin right from the start.

    Thanks for any help.
     
  2. robycop3

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    I believe sin began when Satan became proud and sought to be equal to God. I have no idea how long ago that was.
     
  3. Rich_UK

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    I believe so too robycop. The thing I don't understand is this:

    Who created sin? Did the very concept of sin simply happen into exsistence when satan rebelled? Or was sin something that God programmed into the very core of satan, in which case, He created the possibility of sin and the sin simply happened as a result. I'm a firm believer that nothing in creation has been created or purposed without having one who purposed it. Every aspect of every part of creation has been designed. Was sin part of the design?
     
  4. Glory Bound

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    Everything God created was "good", as stated in Genesis. It's often said that God created the "potential" to sin, rather than sin itself. The creatures Satan and Adam/Eve chose to sin, becoming sinful in the process.

    At least that's how I understand it.
     
  5. danrusdad

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    It is important to realize that sin is not a 'thing' in the sense you are using it. Rather, sin is a lack or a deficiency in something. In this case, a lack of good or a deficiency in what God's perfect will was. Sin is like a cancer, it doesn't exist in it's own right, it survives only by perverting something good. Think of it like light and dark--dark is not a thing it is a lack of light. God did not create sin, but He did create the freedom to choose to not always follow Him.
     
  6. MTA

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    I believe that angels and mankind are remarkably similar. One of these characteristics is the ability for rational thought and decision-making. Believing that, then it follows that angels do the express bidding of the Father because they have that desire to do God's will, not because they have no choice but to do His will. That corresponds to Adam's ability before the fall, to freely adhere to God's law or to disobey it.

    To assign the design of sin to God attaches an attribute that is against His nature. Satan had the ability to consciously obey or rebel against God. However, God undeniably knew that sin would originate with Satan and that man would willingly embrace it.

    It is impossible to understand the grand design of God's creation and what occurred before man was introduced into the scheme. But this much we do know and that is that God provided a means whereby our sins are forgiven, reconciling us through the blood of his Son to the same relational position He held with Adam. This is in contrast to fallen angels who have no hope.
     
  7. Rich_UK

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    Some great points. I certainly didn't, nor ever have, believed that God created sin itself. It's just that I couldn't explain why I don't believe it. I couldn't explain where sin came from originally if it didn't come from God.

    I realize that sin isn't a tangible thing in and of itself. I always felt that sin starts in a thought and then is carried through into an action. I suppose my confusion lies in knowing where the actual capacity to sin came from. If God has always been holy then the idea of Him, at some point, coming up with the idea of *sin* seems alien to his nature. But it must of happened as the capacity to sin was one of the attributes of the Angels and humans. I believe it was kind of like wrapped up with free will as one package. But still it came from somewhere. Its odd.

    Great responses .
     
  8. Dr. Bob

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    The "potential" to sin/rebel was always there in the spirit-realm, since angels/seraphs/cherubs were created. But it was "abstract" and could not be dealt with until it became "concrete".

    So God allowed the spirt-world rebellion. Sin became concrete and a lake of fire prepared for eternal judgment of the fallen spirits. The spirits - good and bad alike - were confirmed in that position and they cannot change.

    Before the foundation of the world, God planned to allow man a probation and then, if he sinned, to send God the Son to die for His chosen. Of course, Eve sinned by the same rebellion against God (Adam got blamed, duh) and sin that had been concrete in the SPIRIT world now became concrete in the PHYSICAL world.

    And the lake of fire, prepared for satan and his fallen angels, will become the final abode of all the unredeemed rebels of earth.

    Why did God permit sin? So that it could be judged for all time.
     
  9. Rich_UK

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    Dr Bob where did you get that....that spirit realm always had the potential to sin? Thats really interesting...I've never read that before.
    Also, if the potential to sin was always there in the spirit realm, then before the Angelic beings were created, was the potential to sin there then?...This thread is really interesting to me. Thanks guys.
     
  10. exscentric

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    Rom. 5.12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world , and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
     
  11. Rich_UK

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    The first human to sin on earth was indeed Eve and then Adam...the thing is, sin must have been around before that because Lucifer was in the garden and he had already sinned against God, hence being cast out of heaven. So yes, sin entered into the world thru Eve,but it was around before her and Adam. So my question was, where did it or even the very concept of it, originate.
     
  12. gb93433

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    By the way we think with a Greek mindset He did not. But if you read in the Bible it says He did. Well how could God create something He does not condone or bless.

    God created sin in the same sense that He created good. When Satan sinned, he saw evil. So with good present, there is also evil present. If there were no evil there would be no sin nor would there be good. There would be no difference.

    In the end, with good there is bad and God created everything.

    Hope this helps.
     
  13. Dr. Bob

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    Studied a lot since I taught it to undergrad seniors in an ifb college.

    Whatever we see about the attributes/nature of God (positive) the POTENTIAL for the opposite (negative) is there.

    Whenever you have immutability, you always have the potential to NOT be. Sin is that way; the ABSENCE of telling the truth is a de facto lie.

    So spirit beings were created with a freedom and possibility to sin or not in any of a hundred areas. Rebelling against God, the anointed Cherub Lucifer (Son of the Morning) the highest of ALL creation, opted to sin and minyons followed.

    They chose NOT to be obedient - the negative possibility that was always present.

    Sadly, with man's fallen nature now, we ALWAYS chose the negative. Oh, our works SEEM good to us and our fellow men; I'm not as bad as Hitler! But all our good works are filthy rags to God.
     
  14. Rich_UK

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    Good explanation Bob, thanks....Makes it seem a lot clearer. Thanks for taking the time to post here guys, its been a really interesting thread.
     
  15. rufus

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    When God created humans with FREE WILL, He created the POTENTIAL for sin, but He in NO WAY created the ACTUALIZATION OF SIN!.

    Rufus
     
  16. robycop3

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    With all the great explanations here, I can safely conclude that SATAN created sin by becoming proud of HIMSELF rather than remaining happy that he was serving the Master/Creator of himself and all existence in a very high capacity. He wanted to be the MOST high.
     
  17. Rich_UK

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    Ok. Good point. But, who gave satan the ability to sin? Did satan just purpose to do it, out of nothing? Or did God place the ability within all his angels including satan. Bear in mind that nothing can surprise God...he knows all things right? So God must have known all about sin before satan first sinned.
     
  18. Johnv

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    Sin didn't just originate once. Sin originates every day. Every time each of us chooses to disobey the Lord, we sin. Satan never forces anyone to sin. We do so out of our own desire to serve self rather than serve God.
     
  19. Stan Peel

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    Just joined this forum, and this topic is most interesting. The exchanges of beliefs about sin are engaging. SO we are trying to see how sin originated, through Satan and/or Adam, and just how does sin appear out of a perfect creation? It's a fascinating thing to discuss.

    My first inclination is to look at what happens when sin appears. We know that God's wrath is fierce because of sin and that no sin can come into His presence. Before sin, everything God created was "good" and in perfect harmony. Then Satan rebelled and was cast out of heaven and there was a war in the spiritual realm between good and evil.

    Then came man created in the image of God. So he has some of the attributes of God, most important to this issue is the free will. He only had one restriction on his will, do not eat from the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Otherwise, man (and woman) had full enjoyment of the garden and all needs were met.

    Adam (not Eve) is given the charge of watching over the garden, so when things didn't abide by God's law Adam had to be the one held accountable, not Eve. When Eve took and ate the fruit, Adam was by her side and did nothing to stop her; in fact, he even participated with her. Accountability for free will decisions has been demanded from the beginning. So man is entrapped in the war between good and evil.

    Such was the case when Jesus judged the church at Ephesus. He said in Rev. 2:4-5, "Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place." (NIV)

    So then, who is responsible for sin? Is God to blame because He gave us free will? Then why should Jesus demand that the church repent? And from what? From the sin of forsaking their first love! What first love? The first commandment love! "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."

    Likewise, Adam forsook the faithful duties over the garden and broke fellowship with God. When Adam was given the command, Eve was not yet created, so he must be totally responsible for whatever occurred in the garden, that it should be good in God's sight. Adam also broke the spirit of the First Commandment.

    Perfect fellowship with God is what Adam had before he sinned and he forsook it! We don't know his motives for doing it, but do we have to? Does it make us uneasy to know that we will be held accountable for every free will decision? Oh, yes. And God knows we will sin. He knows we cannot justify ourselves. Therefore, Jesus. Therefore, repent and be cleansed.

    So then, can it be said that sin comes out of breaking fellowship with God? That maybe our pride deceives us? That the lust of the eyes and the lust of the flesh and the pride of life tempt us to sin against God? What is sin if it's not all things unrighteous? But God is just and righteous and holy. He cannot deny Himself and create sin, something which is not in His own image.

    Therefore, God is not the author of confusion nor the author of sin. Satan may have committed the first sin but we are willing accomplices. Because of our sin nature and pride of life, Satan can tempt us to sin and join him in condemnation. And sin is not always obvious and not always an act of commission or omission, for if we do not believe in the Son of God, we are already condemned. So even unbelief is a cause of sin. It is not of God.

    Stan
     
  20. Rich_UK

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    Welcome to the Board Stan. I hope your time here is enjoyable and that we are a blessing to you, and you to us [​IMG]

    Thanks for making your first post here. Interesting post I might add.
    I too don't believe God is the author of sin. The thing that confuses me is this: If Satan was the first person to sin, and yet God created him....Then God knew in advance that satan would sin, as God knows all things, even in advance. So in effect, God knew about sin, even before sin was in the world right? So, the thoughts of sin were dwelling within a holy God, even before sin had entered into the world. So although satan committed the first sin, if God hadn't created satan, then sin wouldn't have come into the world...so although God isn;t the author of sin....did he allow sin to come about, whilst knowing that in doing so, it would effect the whole of creation thereafter? or....did he place the ability to sin, inside satan? In which case confusion arises again with the origination of sin itself....I'm confusing myself now..I'd better sign off for the night lol
     

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