How do Arminians KNOW They are the Elect of God?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Oct 28, 2013.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    As Arms accuse cals of being arrogant by assuming that we kinow that God has made us one of His elect in Christ...

    On what basis do Arminians know they are the elect of God than?
     
  2. Winman

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    Any person who believes that Jesus died for him and places their trust in him to save them is elect.

    The problem for Calvinists is that they cannot truly know Jesus died for them. Oh, they can "hope" he died for them, but if Limited Atonement is true, then it is impossible for any person to know Jesus died for them.

    And how do you have faith in a maybe????

    How do you have faith in a perhaps????

    You can't. And it is a fact that Calvinists suffer from lack of assurance because of this very doctrine.

    https://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2013/05/doubting-calvinists/

    This writer is a Calvinist who often counsels other Calvinists who have serious problems with doubt. This man has never had a call from an Arminian or a non-Cal. Why? Because Arminians and non-Cals KNOW Jesus died for them. Calvinists do not.

    A non-Cal knows that Jesus died for him and can place his complete trust in this scriptural truth.

    A Calvinist cannot possibly know this, because they believe Jesus only died for some men, and they do not know who these men are, including themselves.
     
    #2 Winman, Oct 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2013
  3. Revmitchell

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    Who specifically has made this accusation?
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    See post # 2, as many think that fr a cal to see himself as being the chosen of God, that God made them "special", as if I was someone worth more to Him than someone else!
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    So there are no false professions in your theological views (Jn. 6:64; 1 Jn 2:19)?

    False! Paul writes the Thessalonians and tells them exactly how they can know they are the elect and "believe" is not even included in his answer. They can know because the gospel does not come in "word only" but IN POWER and IN the Holy Spirit as there is a CREATED CHANGE of life, attitude and view of God and Christ (which includes repentance and faith). However, the emphasis is not on faith but POWER exhibited by the presence of the Holy Spirit in regard to the gospel.
     
  6. Yeshua1

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    Paul wrote in hebrews that 'we know" so he was sure of there salvation being secured, John wrote 'that you may know", and peter said to us to confirm that our election is sure, so the Apsotles all seemd to state that the elect will know of their election in Christ, and will be able to show fruit to evidence that truth!

    I have yet to see here someone who is either arminian or non cal explain just why they received Jesus and their neighbor didn;t who heard same message in church, as their answer HAS to be because i was smarter, better eyc man centered!
     
  7. Winman

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    If a person believes Jesus died for their sins and places their complete trust in him alone to save them, they are absolutely saved.

    First of all, Paul taught people that Jesus died for their sins, so these persons could place their complete trust in Jesus.

    Calvinism teaches that Jesus only died for some persons. Calvinists freely confess this all the time.

    This is simple, a child could easily understand, so perhaps you can too. If Jesus did not die for everyone, then you have no idea if he died for you. You cannot possibly know that, it is impossible.

    Now, you can convince yourself you are one of the elect that Jesus died for, and if you are lucky you could be correct. But it is just as probable, NO, more probable that you are one of the billions of unfortunate people Jesus did not die for. Oh, you may believe you are elect, but on judgment day you will be surprised to find yourself cast out.

    What is comical, is that when it really comes down to it, Calvinists are doing the very thing they accuse non-Cals of doing, CHOOSING THEMSELVES. You think because you have convinced yourself you are elect that that makes it so.

    Just because you believe something does not make it so. You could believe a defective parachute is safe and jump out of an airplane with it, and you will fall to your death.

    Biblicist- Here I am Jesus, I am all yours

    Jesus- No you are not, I never knew you, I never chose you.

    Biblicist- Yes you did, I am one of the elect.

    Jesus- No you are not, I never chose you, and I did not die for you. I only died for some men, and you were not one of them.

    Biblicist- But I believed you did die for me.

    Jesus- You were mistaken, now depart from me.
     
  8. Yeshua1

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    The problem is that you ,ust take in the whole of scripture to see why salvation is as calvinists see it, for if one denies original Sin, denies sin natures as a result, you can get to human free will accepting Jesus, and sin nature not forcing you to always deny Him, but if one sees the full effect of the fall as scriptures tells us then...
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Co_rect! :thumbs:
     
  10. Winman

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    Dude, you are rambling on.

    If you believe Jesus only died for some men, then you have no idea if Jesus died for you.

    Saving faith is depending on Jesus's death and resurrection to save you. You have no idea if Jesus died for you and rose for you, so how can you possibly have faith in this? You can't. That is why that Calvinist wrote that article. His answer is horrible, he simply tells folks not to worry about it. Right.

    But truth be told, that is the only answer he can give, he doesn't even know if he is elect. So, he just puts it out of his mind.

    Actually, pretty good advice. My advice to all Calvinists is eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you die.
     
  11. Crabtownboy

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    Question 1; Simple, God did it!

    Question 2; Simple, believing in Christ as our Lord and Savior.
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    You are talking about something you cannot prove happened in anyone. The reason you cannot prove it because it is defined differently. Some define it by hearing a proper testimony as though that proved it really happened. Some define it by saying a correctly said prayer which may mean nothing. Paul defines it ultimately by POWER of the Holy Sprit that makes a DIFFERENCE in the person's attidute, committment and confession not merely a confesssion. So, how do you define it? I imagine by merely hearing or saying the right words huh??? The right words mean nothing if there is no TRANSFORMING POWER that makes you a NEW CREATURE, and a CHANGED life that people can see and you experienced along with the correct words.

    If you are depending upon saying a correct prayer at one time in your life, or walking an aisle and being led like a parrot to repeat after me as proof of your salvation you are as lost now as you were before you said those magical words. Where there is no NEW CREATURE there is no salvation regardless of what you said, heard or prayed.



    You are confusing the correct message with ability to respond correctly. They are not the same. False professors all in John 6:64 heard the right message from Christ many times and all made such a profession but they NEVER WERE SAVED because there never was "given unto him" what only THE FATHER could give (Jn. 6:65).

    I preach that Christ died "FOR SINNERS" but not all know themselves to be sinners and some deny they are sinners. I preach that Christ died for "his friends" and for "his sheep" and only sinners, friends, sheep, elect actually experience a empowered confession of the gospel that is life transformational.


    Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say God loves "YOU" and Christ died for "YOU." Nowhere! The "us" in the Bible are the elect.

    Here is the crux of your problem. You think salvation is merely being convinced you are saved by saying the right words and thus you need to remind yourself of those right words when you experience doubt in order to "convince yourself" you are saved. There is no salvation in that plan of action. The Spirit "BEARS WITNESS" with our spirit that we are the children of God by MANIFEST POWER of a changed life, a changed will, a changed person who confessed the right words.

    You have nothing to base your salvation upon but a memory of saying something corretly. I have an experience of transforming power along with the right words and that power never ceased and the right words never ceased to be my continuing expression. I know I am saved because it was a SUPERNATURAL experienc that TRANSFORMED me into a new creation, with a new want to, new desires and willingness to obey Christ. That power continues within me until this very day and will till I go to be with the Lord in glory. That is more than the "gospel only" in mere words (1 Thes. 1:4-5).
     
  13. Winman

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    Look, I know what it means to trust Jesus. It means to place your very soul in his hands and depend upon him only to save you. A perfect example is shown by Jesus himself on the cross.

    Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    Jesus trusted his Father to the very death. He was willing to die on the cross trusting and believing God would raise him from the dead as he promised. This is saving faith. A person can know when they have committed their soul to Jesus and are depending on his work alone on the cross to save them.

    You on the other hand look to your works to prove to yourself you are the elect. You are like those persons in Matthew 7 who claimed they prophesied in Jesus's name, and cast out devils in his name, and did many "wonderful works" in his name.



    Correct prayer? You mean like the publican who beat on his chest and said, "God be merciful to me, a sinner?". Yes, I said a prayer like that too. I confessed to Jesus I was a sinner and I asked Jesus to have mercy on me and save me.

    It does not say one word about them giving a profession, show that. You have the uncanny ability to see things in scripture that are not there.

    And even that is a half-truth, because you believe Jesus only died for "some" sinners. You cannot look any person in the eye and tell them Jesus died for them. No, you must speak like a deceitful and tricky lawyer or politician, you must carefully select words that can "appear" to mean something, but do not mean that at all. You try to give a person the impression that Jesus died for them, when you do not know if that is true. Misleading at best, utterly dishonest at worst.

    The worst part is, you do not even know if Jesus died for you. But in your case that is OK, because you are so full of yourself that you have utterly convinced yourself that you are the elect. How could Jesus survive without you?

    As another poster said, HUBRIS.


    See, here is what you REALLY believe. You believe Jesus only died for "some" sinners.

    Paul told the Corinthians that Jesus died for OUR sins.

    John also said Jesus was the propitiation for our sins, and not ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. He must have known how Calvinists would attempt to twist his words in the future.

    I love the way you assume the OTHER person has the problem. That pretty much sums up your personality right there. You are completely full of yourself.

    If you believe in Limited Atonement, then you have no idea if Jesus died for you. That is logically impossible. And your experience proves nothing.

    You really think you are something special don't you?
     
    #13 Winman, Oct 28, 2013
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  14. The Biblicist

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    You know nothing about Biblical salvation and it is plain to see. All you know about is the basis for every false profession - lip service. Your entire response is completely void of the real essential in genuine salvation or as Paul said it:

    Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

    Your type of salvation is easy believism and pure lip service without the true essence of Biblical savlation - A NEW CREATURE - and that comes ONLY by POWER in addition to "word only."
     
    #14 The Biblicist, Oct 29, 2013
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  15. preacher4truth

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    You're correct. The thing we are fighting is easy believism, the false gospel of no evidence of salvation, the infiltration of impostors in the church, preachers assuring others they will go to heaven no matter what if they pray a prayer. This false gospel is rampant in churches.
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    This is their definition of "faith" and their definition of "salvation" completely void of the real essential that distinguishes false professors from truely saved. This is why their only assurance of salvation is the memory of "polly wants a cracker" or mere correct words they repeated once upon a time, whereas TRUE salvation is a TRANSFORMING EXPERIENCE where the POWER of God changed a person from the inside out making them a NEW CREATURE. This is why they fight so hard against effectual calling because they don't beleive salvation is any more than "polly wants a cracker" repetition of verbal correctness. It takes a genuine salvation experience in order to see the truth or other wise you have the response characterized by Romans 8:7 in regard to the truth of salvation.
     
  17. convicted1

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    Here's how to know you're an elect of God:

    We know we are one of His elect because we had a Godly sorrow set up in our lives that caused us to see our wickedness, and to call out to God to save us. We know we're one of His elect because we have a love for our enemies that wasn't there before.
     
  18. preacher4truth

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    Correct. Election isn't simply hooked to some decision in the past, it is evident by the continual work of grace ongoing in our hearts, reflecting a lifestyle of repentance, mourning, joy, love, forgiveness, leading of the Spirit &c. :thumbs:
     
  19. preacher4truth

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    Yep. Interestingly soul winners will count the number of souls they've lead to the Lord, and will defend them no matter what, and say they are saved (they lead them in the prayer) but will also say we cannot know who is saved or who is not. I'm not part of that camp, and I believe there are in fact evidences of both being lost (of professing believers) and saved and these are give to us in Scripture.
     
  20. convicted1

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    Also, how 'bout them Raiders? We're 3-4 w/o much offense.
     
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