How do we know that God loves everybody?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Aug 8, 2006.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    I just came across the site of this disturbed person (Fred Phelps) and read a "sermon" from him. This one here ( http://www.godhatesfags.com/sermons/outlines/Sermon_20060730.pdf ), where he claims that God doesn't love everybody and that he hates the sinners. He seems to be a firm believe in calvinism. So most likely he thinks that while him and his whole family is chosen others are not chosen and were created for destruction. :laugh:

    But actually I have also asked myself what kind of attitude God has towards those which go to hell. Is he angry at them? Or does he feel sorry for them? Jesus says in the bible "depart from me you cursed". This doesn't sound like he's sorry for those which go to hell it rather sounds like he's angry. So how do we know that God loves everybody and that he might not also have created humans which he does not love, which are made for destruction? :confused:
    After all God also hated Esau, which Phelps also noticed and which he uses to support his opinion. If God hated Esau and not only hated Esau's sin then why do people say today that God hates the sin but loves the sinner?

    And what do you say about their statement to the question of God loves everyone?
    They have a long FAQ at their site where they answer all kinds of questions WITH bible verses. How is this possible that they are able to support their opinion with bible verses making it look as if the bible supports their view?

     
    #1 xdisciplex, Aug 8, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2006
  2. El_Guero

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    XX

    Find your self in a solid Bible Believing and Teaching Baptist Church. Or find any other solid Bible Believing and Teaching Church. But, find a solid one.

    Ya' need it.

    Wayne
     
  3. Not_hard_to_find

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    You've answered your own question. Why spend time on the website of a disturbed person? You cannot change his mind any more than I can change yours.

    Matthew 10:14, Mark 6:11, Luke 9:5
     
  4. Chris L.

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    Although I totally disagree with Fred Phelps methods and do not consider him a brother in Christ, he's right in that nowhere in the Bible does God say he loves all human beings equally the same.

    Phrases like "God hates the sin but loves the sinner" and "God helps those who help themselves" are not to be found in the Bible either to the best of my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong).

    It may come as a surprise to many people but God is under no obligation to love everyone equally or even to love them at all. God is not a socialist.

    So what do you do? Repent of your sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ if you haven't done so already. God will love those who seek to know him and walk with him. :love2:
     
    #4 Chris L., Aug 8, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2006
  5. Scarlett O.

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    Psalm 91:4 says that God will protect us with his feathers and his wings. Some people, out of spiritual ignorance, might run around claiming that God is angelic in form and some even might proclaim that God is a bird!!

    They could establish a website, pull other scripture about angels or birds, and twist an entire false doctrine about God.

    And there are people all across the globe who would believe every blasphemous lie of it.

    This is who Fred Phelps is and this is what Fred Phelps has done. He hasn't addressed the true nature of God, but he has addressed "hate".

    He has turned God's justice into a justification for his own hatred of other people.

    When God says that he "loved Jacob and hated Esau", he wasn't talking about "hatred" in the sense that we think when we say "hate".

    He was addressing Israel in Malachi 1:2-3. He was telling them how much he has loved them. He loved them so much that he protected them and exalted them. He loved them, ("Jacob" who later was renamed "Israel").

    "Jacob" is a name for all of Israel.
    "Esau" is a name for another entire group of people, the Edomites.

    God is explaining to Israel just how special they are to him. So special that he set them apart from all the other peoples of the world, including their own kin who turned their back on God.

    God is not hating anyone. God is CERTAINLY NOT advocating the hatred of anyone.

    Based on you track record here, xdisciplex, you are not going to beleive a word that I say. You seem only interested in raising questions that shed doubt on God and His Word. I can't do anything about that.

    But I can sleep better at night if I tell you this.

    RUN!!!! Run as fast as you can away from Fred Phelps and his hellish "doctrine" of hating people based on twisted scripture.

    He is a liar. He is sending people to hell. He will mess you up!!
     
  6. xdisciplex

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    Hi! :wavey:

    Why should I not believe you Scarlett?
    This stuff is simply confusing because they also use the bible to support their view and I find it really hard to say anything against this. I mean when I read this it's obvious to me that they are simply full of hate and that God cannot be like this but it's hard to say something against their claims. I think that their whole world view is pretty waterproof and that you couldn't come up with an argument which they do not have an answer for, this is what confuses me.
    And when I read a bit on their site I thought what if they are right? I mean what if they understand the bible correctly and we are the ones who don't? After all Jesus did all those things which are mentioned in the quote beyond. He preached about hell, he rebuked the pharisees, He also said to sin no more and he also said to cut off your hand if it tempts you to sin. He did all these things. What if they are right and we're not taking this seriously enough?
    What if we're using salvation as an excuse to sin? I mean often I do not resist as much as I could. If everything depended on never sinning anymore then I would try much harder not to sin. :(
    What if I'm taking this way too easy and think that God is cool and that God will forgive me and then I find out that God is much more serious?
    Why did Jesus say to the adulterous woman not to sin anymore? Does this mean that you are only supposed to do a sin one time and then you repent of it and never do it again? Because this is what Phelps claims. He says repentance means not doing a sin again. If this is what repentance means then every christian would do a certain sin only one time and then never again. He would get angry only one time and then repent of it and never get angry again, or we would tell a lie one time and then repent and then it would never ever happen again. Is this realistic?

    But the thing is when you read this here you think: Jesus really did all those things and then I ask myself what if they're right and Jesus was much stricter and much more fanatical than we think he was? When you read this you get the impression that Jesus behaved the same way they do and that he rebuked sinners in the same way they do.


     
  7. Brother Bob

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    God is outside of time and could see Esau sell his birthright before he was ever born.

    He created man (all men) in His own image and after His own likeness and is supposed to hate him?
     
  8. webdog

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    You are correct...but Jesus being called a "friend of sinners" is, and would seem to tell us that He doesn't hate them. You "hate" any of your friends?
     
  9. xdisciplex

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    @ Bob

    But does this not mean that you can do something which is so upsetting to God that he'll hate you for it? Even if he did not hate Esau right away, if he hated him after selling his birth right then this means he hated him for doing this thing.
     
  10. billwald

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    If you loved your children would you send them to Hell for eternity if they offended you or would you continually work to reconcile them to you?
     
  11. Brother Bob

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    I think Esau had lost the likeness of God when he sold his birthright. The Scripture says God hated Esau so who am I to say He didn't. Also, He hated the deeds of the Nicholadeons (if I spelled that right).
    Judas was the Son of Perdition which is the devil and God hates the devil. Some people have their conscious seared with a heart iron and would do anything except worship God for without a conscious they wouldn't be able to worship God but have a hardness of heart. I think Esau represents the sinful flesh and God hates sin.
     
  12. webdog

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    The word "hate" in the Bible doesn't always mean the same thing as we know it. Jesus says that if we hate...meaning opposite of love...we are murderers. God "hating" in the sense you are using it would make God a murderer...a sinner, therefore not God.
     
  13. Scarlett O.

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    I don't know why I keep beating my head against this brick wall, but here I go.......please read this post carefully.

    Jesus Christ himself used the word "hate" and I believe it is the similar in manner as God used it in Malachi.

    Luke 14:26..."If any man come to me, and hateth not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple"

    At face value, Jesus appears to be saying that if we want to follow him that we have to hate everybody else, including ourselves.

    Well......that's contradictory to the rest of the bible, so what does "hate" really mean?

    It means that to be a disciple of Jesus Christ, you must let go of anything that would take precedence over our love for Christ.

    Husbands and wives are commanded to love and respect each other, but Jesus is saying here that they are to love Him more and in a much more enlightened capacity.

    Parents are to love their children and vice versa, but in this passage we find that even our love for our own flesh cannot rise above our love for Jesus Christ.

    Here, in Luke 14:26 "hate" does not have the face value definition of "hate" that one would find in a dictionary.

    It's deeper than face value.

    You are taking "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated" at face value.

    "Esau have I hated" does not mean that God condemned Esau to hell or despised his very being.

    God is talking to Israelites who have questioned God's love for them.

    He is telling them that he "loved" Jacob, , which means he made him to be the appointed heir when he wasn't intended to be and changed his name to "Israel" and gave him 12 sons from whom the nations Israel came. He "hated" Esau, which means he rejected him as the heir.

    Why did God reject Esau when he was the first-born? Because the birthright of the first-born meant absolutely nothing to Esau. He despised it.

    God is reminding the Israelites, who are having a "pity-party" in Malachi 1:2, that their ancestor, Jacob (Israel), was not intended to be the heir, but God appointed him to be so.

    God did not "hate" Esau in the vile manner that human beings hate each other. He hated him in the fact that God is NOT fooling around with this "commitment" factor.

    Esau choose not to accept his duty as first born and therefore his commitment to the Lord, so in turn, God rejected him and appointed his brother heir apparent, instead.

    The Fred Phelps connotation of "hate" in this passage is evil and a lie.
     
    #13 Scarlett O., Aug 8, 2006
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2006
  14. xdisciplex

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    But when you take a look at when Jesus uses the word love then I think it always refers to those which God has given him! Jesus also didn't pray for the world but he prayed for those which God had given him. Doesn't this mean that God doesn't love all but only those which also love Jesus?

    Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
     
  15. Chris L.

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    I know that the concept is there in the Bible about Jesus being a friend of sinners, I wasn't saying that. It just concerns me when I keep hearing phrases being attributed to God as if they were Bible verses. Some new Christians might be inclined to think they are.

    Does Jesus love unrepentent sinners? Scripture would seem to indicate that he does not. I'm not saying he hates them, but he may not have any feelings for them at all. Just like you can enjoy a fine meal at a restaurant without thinking about the fact that people are starving in Africa.

    Just speculation, don't take me too seriously.
     
  16. DHK

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    How do we know that God loves everybody?

    How do we know?

    Jesus loves me this I know,
    For the Bible tells me so.

    (John 3:16; Romans 5:8)
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    Read. Yes, God is capable of hate....

    psalm 5:4 -

    4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

    5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

    No amount of watering down the meaning of the word hate can mean it to be any other but an emotion of intense dislike, a detesting of someone or something.

    Also, I do not agree with Fred Phelps in many things, including his maniacal dislike of sodomites and lesbians, but he is right in saying that God hates fags. What is wrong with this language is the last word, which is basically a street word (?), but what if he titled his website "God hates sodomy" or "God hates homosexuality", will we even raise an eyebrow ?

    Are we going to deny that God does hate sodomy, so that in the Old Testament, sodomites were stoned to death (to purge society) and in the New Testament Paul warned the effeminates will not inherit the kingdom of God ?

    I just could not understand, even when I was Arminian, how God could love the world and all mankind, send his Son to save "all mankind", and then, in the end, destroy the world He says He loves, and punish men who do not accept His work in Christ.

    It seems to me if God loved mankind so much to send His own Son to death on the cross, and watch Him suffering, then He would do everything in His power to make sure that sacrifice does not go to naught, and work things out for His beloved mankind, so that, indeed, they do not get sent to hell and suffer His wrath, which is the reason Christ died on the cross in the first place.
     
    #17 pinoybaptist, Aug 8, 2006
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  18. DHK

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    He did He work things out. He gave every man a chance to believe or reject Christ; to make their own choice--to choose Heaven or Hell. Is it God's fault that some choose Hell over Heaven? Why do you blame God for the evil in the world?

    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Concerning Psalms 5, from which you quoted, it is an "imprecatory psalm," a class of psalms that is difficult that is difficult for most people to understand. In these psalms the pslamist prays for judgment. But it is God's judgment. He is speaking forth almost prophetically the judgement that will come upon the nation spoken of. These are not examples of prayer that the New Testament believer ought to follow. They are a class of their own demonstrating the judgement and wrath of God.

    Psalms 109:1-17 <<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.>> Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise;
    2 For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.
    3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.
    4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.
    5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
    6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
    7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
    8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
    9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
    10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
    11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.
    12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.
    13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
    14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
    15 Let them be before the LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.
    16 Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart.
    17 As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him.

    I trust you would not pray such a prayer as this today. It is an example of an imprecatory psalm. In very vivid language it expresses the judgment of God upon sin.
    Keep in mind that God always loves the sinner, but he hates the sin (as you mentioned--sodomy) He destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah for the sin that they were committing. But he still loved the people. Judgement is always against sin. There is a consequence for sin, even according to our own justice system. We hate murder. And if a murderer is put to death, love may go out to that man, but we hate the sin that he has done. I hope that helps.
    DHK
     
  19. JFox1

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    Fred Phelps is not a good example of a Christian. He has web sites such as Godhatesamerica.com and Godhatescanada.com. In the FAQ section, someone asked Fred Phelps if God hates all countries, and he said that He does. His websites are some of the last places I would look for spiritual guidance. :eek:
     
  20. xdisciplex

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    @ scarlett

    I know what you mean and in this example I think you're right about the meaning of hate but this doesn't work in all cases such as this one. Look at this one. Here hate really means hate.

    Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

    I mean where is the sense of trying to give the word hate another meaning?
    But if God hates the wicked ones then he also must have hated me before I become a christian? But if he hated me then why did he even make me become a christian? :confused:
    This also makes no sense.
     

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