How do you know (2)?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by TCassidy, Feb 26, 2006.

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  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    First allow me to apologize for having to start a second thread just when the first one was bearing spiritual fruit. It seems the official policy of the Baptist Board is to disallow any discussion that might bring the two sides together in a spiritual consensus. I can only guess at the reason the BB moderators keep closing threads, but I suspect it is due to a vicious bias that hates to see the brethren dwell together in peace. :(

    Now, as to the question:
    No, to both questions. I do not know of any single Hebrew or Greek manuscript that is letter perfect in the sense that you use the word "perfect." And even if there is one we would have no way of knowing because we don't have the autographs to compare it to.

    Nor do I mean "just the autographs." I believe there is a textform that reproduces the autographical readings. And I believe that textform is the Byzantine textform. The Byzantine textform has several representative texts, one of which is the TR which underlies the KJV.
    The original manuscripts were never gathered together into one volume. It is difficult to say exactly when the bible, as we know it, was assembled into a single book, but historically I would say it was in the late 2nd century or early 3rd century.

    I am glad we can continue this every enlightening discussion. I hope the moderators will learn to exercise some spiritual discernment and allow us to continue the discussion. As we both know the so-called "5 page rule" is fiction. There are several threads that were allowed to go much longer. One went 9 pages without being closed and one is well over 20 pages and still open. Go figure. :(
     
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    So, you are saying you have no problem with the words found in the KJV being changed as long as the new choice of words means the same thing? In other words you have no problem with the NKJV, LITV, KJ2000, TMB, or the MKJV?
     
  3. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Doc, please show me a thread over twenty pages long in the versions forum. I must have missed it or would have closed it long ago. The five page limit is a BVT forum policy, not the vicious bias that you consider it to be.

    You are always welcome to continue a discussion of a thread which is closed only due to a page limit.
     
  4. standingfirminChrist

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    TCassidy,

    I have a big problem with any version that removes the meaning or the word altogether.

    For instance,

    1 John 5:7-8 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

    NIV 1 John 5:7-8 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the {7,8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)} Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. (by saying Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit are in a different manuscript raises doubt)

    NRS 1 John 5:7-8 7 There are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree.

    ASV 1 John 5:7-8 7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one. ( only one bears witness?)

    BBE 1 John 5:7-8 7 And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is true. 8 There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood: and all three are in agreement. ( only one bears witness?)

    DBY 1 John 5:7-8 7 For they that bear witness are three: 8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three agree in one.

    ESV 1 John 5:7-8 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

    NAB 1 John 5:7-8 7 So there are three that testify, 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.

    NAS 1 John 5:7-8 7 And it is (a)the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8 For there are (a)three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

    The list goes on and on. And it is not just these verses that are changed entirely or missing altogether, there are thousands of verses taken out or changed entirely that have to do with the blood, the virgin birth, the deity of Christ, judgment for sin, etc.
     
  5. SoulWinningLady

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    The original manuscripts were never gathered together into one volume. It is difficult to say exactly when the bible, as we know it, was assembled into a single book, but historically I would say it was in the late 2nd century or early 3rd century.

    [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Thank you for opening another thread! That was very nice of you.
    This is such a hard concept for me to grasp.
    I believe that God's promises are true.
    From what I understand, what you are saying is there is no perfect Word in our hands today whether it be in Greek or Hebrew or English.
    I just do not understand how this is possible, that we don't have His pure Word anymore. What do you think the Jewish people have? There portion I mean. Do you think they have the pure Word of God in thier Torah?
    S~
     
  6. Pastor_Bob

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  7. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    The former thread was dealing with particular passages instead of how to know which version to trust. Some of the same old rehashed KJVO/non-KJVO issues were coming back to the surface.

    We are much better if we deal with disagreements regarding moderator decisions on a PM basis instead of trying to justify every moderator decision publicly. That will end up causing chaos. I will not try to justify every decision I make publicly, but I can assure you that it is not " a vicious bias that hates to see the brethren dwell together in peace."
     
  8. Deacon

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    What is the earliest full exemplar discovered that displays the Byzantine textform and what is it's estimated date?

    Rob
     
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    So do I.
    No, that is not what I am saying. I believe the bible is perfect in that it is complete, mature, and lacking nothing necessary to the whole. I not only believe that about the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts, but also about the English version that are translated from the same textform as the KJV. My KJV is perfect in that it is complete, mature, and lacking nothing necessary to the whole. And so is the LITV, TMB, MKJV, etc.
    If you don't believe we have God's pure word, then there is probably nothing I can do to help you. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
    Yes.
     
  10. robycop3

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    Is it fair to say that the Jews, just after the time of Malachi, had all the OT texts in the temple, or at least in the possession of the priests?
     
  11. SoulWinningLady

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    Help me here. Do you believe that these you listed also contain errors of men?
    Thanks
    S
     
  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    The bible contains no errors of fact.
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    How do you know?

    One person assumes that God, in His divine providence
    preserved one and only one inerrant perfect written word
    in English.
    The person can prove the KJV
    is the only written word of God.

    Another person assumes that God, in His divine providence,
    preserved many inerrant perfect written 'word of God' in English.
    The person can prove the NIV, the HCSB, the RSV and
    many other versions are
    individually and all of them are collectively the
    written word of God.

    How do you determine who made the best 'assumption'? :eek: :confused: :eek:
     
  14. Bluefalcon

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    Excluding all MSS from Egypt (due to the unnaturally dry climate that has preserved MSS there), what is the earliest "full exemplar" that is not Byzantine? Answer: not any earlier than the first "full" exemplars that are Byzantine. In the most crucial developmental stage of the NT text (i.e. 1st-2nd centuries), it was Asia Minor, not Egypt, that played the greatest role. The greatest and widest base for NT textual transmission was laid throughout the Greek-speaking world in the 1st-2nd centuries, not in the Coptic speaking locale of Egypt.
     
  15. Trotter

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    But, by this statement, you are placing the KJV as the rule and standard by which to measure (not an attack, just an observation).

    I gotta agree with TCassidy:
    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  16. jshurley04

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    The whole thing is called faith. Without faith in the Word of God we have no basis for trusting our Bible or have any rule of practice. We have to trust that everything that we have is what God has preserved completely without addition or subtraction. For all we know, as first hand fact, the manuscripts we have were made up by a bunch of monks that wanted to manipulate the course of religion. For all we know, the manuscripts could have simply fortold the creation of Micky Mouse by Walt Disney. It is Faith that allows us to trust what we have. By faith we know that the Word of God is perfect and true. By faith we believe that one translation is better or worse than another.

    I think the question should really be, where have we put our faith?
     
  17. robycop3

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    BIBLICAL faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen.

    The key words are substance and evidence.

    Then, there's BLIND faith, which is guesswork, devoid of substance and evidence.

    We should be sure OUR faith is the former & not the latter.
     
  18. standingfirminChrist

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    I believe our faith should be the latter.... Blind faith.

    James said, For we walk by faith, not by sight. 2 Corinthians 5:7

    We should not necessarily wait until we see something to believe it. Faith is the substance, Faith is the evidence. Can we see faith? No.
     
  19. standingfirminChrist

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    Correction...

    I had James on my mind when typing this out. It should be Paul said,...
     
  20. TCassidy

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    Faith should never be blind. True faith should always be informed faith. Romans tells us that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." If our faith is not solidly informed by the word of God, it is not faith, it is folly!
     
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