How does a baby sin?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Helen, Oct 19, 2002.

  1. Helen

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    Been thinking about this.

    Went through all of the Ten Commandments in my mind.

    I've never known a baby who broke one. Well, they will cry for food seven days a week -- is that work?

    Please, how does a baby sin?
     
  2. Baptist Believer

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    A baby does not sin. Moral knowledge of right and wrong must be possessed in order to sin.
     
  3. tyndale1946

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    Helen let me ask you a question... Did John The Baptist in his mother Elizabeths womb possess a sin nature?... What occured when he leapt in his mothers womb after hearing that Mary carried Jesus the Christ child and his Savior?... If they are of the lineage of Adam they possess a sin nature... An inborn condition. It's not what they do it's what they are by nature. Babies included!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  4. rlvaughn

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    Is the Psalmist exaggerating a little to make a point, or can a newborn lie? Is lieing a sin?
    Was David conceived in harlotry or fornication (don't think so he wasn't even the oldest, but the youngest child), or is a sorrowful repentant king acknowledging that his sin problem has existed as long as he has?
    No, I don't think that's what Paul said.

    Finally, if a baby does not sin, does a baby need a Saviour?
     
  5. Mdterp

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    Thanks for sharing that verse!

    Romans 3:23
    For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Simple, we're all born into sin.

    -Bill :D
     
  6. Jim1999

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    Helen, and others:
    This is a very good question and I am not sure any of us have the definitive answer. Yes, we can quote scriptures and we can follow any number of theological designs, but when it comes to an actual situation, we tend to fall short.

    Early in my ministry, I was faced with a real life situation. The infant baby of a loving and Christian couple died and I had the duty of performing the funeral. I never agonized more over a message than this one. What does one say to the Christian couple? What comfort can I possible offer?

    The couple asked me directly if their infant son would be in heaven. I don't know is not a very comforting answer. A long diatribe on Calvinistic theology would not suffice. What does a young man, new to ministry, say?

    Thankfully, I never faced the identical situation again over 56 years.

    You may call me wrong, but my response at the time was: I believe that a loving God would see this infant child of believing parents safely on the distant shores of heaven. Had they been unsaved, by confession, I might have had a different answer. I suppose I was drawing on Calvin's covenantal theology at this point. All the elect will be saved, and the rest passed by.

    Sometimes the best theological scheme falls short in a pastoral setting. What are we to do?
    I draw on my best knowledge of the nature of God and make my own application.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  7. rlvaughn

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    All people who are subject to death are in Adam. All infants are subject to death; therefore, all infants are in Adam. All who die are in Adam. All who are in Adam are sinners; therefore, all who die are sinners. All who are subject to death are sinners. All infants are subject to death; therefore, all infants are sinners.
     
  8. Pastor_Bob

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    We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. It is one thing to be sinless (which no one is) and another thing to be accountable for that sin.

    Without the law, IMO the knowledge of right -vs- wrong, there is no sin because sin is the transgression of the law.

    I have raised (4) children. I did not have to teach any of them how to sin. They were born with the ability and tendency to sin.

    BTW
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Rom. 3:23, "For all who actually know and realize they are sinning have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is a very inaccurate translation of this verse. I sin everyday without realizing it until the Holy Spirit convicts me.
     
  9. tyndale1946

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    Good point Brother Robert and one that is often overlooked!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

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    A book that deals with this issue pretty well, IMO, is "Children and Conversions" edited by Clifford Ingle.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  11. Me2

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    Hello Helen,

    From The Previous Scriptures Mentioned..God In His Infinite ways have made it impossible from adams original Sin for anyone born from him to be without Sin.
    The Curse is Imputed from God, Because of the Bloodline, or Because of the Spiritual Reproduction of a Likekind Spirit..

    **There Are Two Conflicting Stories Running Together.
    All Humans Are Imputed Sin From Adam.
    and ONLY People Can Be Drawn By God, They Acknowledge They are Sinners, By Faith They Agree That Jesus is Their Savior, They Have To Submit 100% To Accept Jesus as Lord To Be "Saved". (99% wont Do. and The Possibility of Failing exists.)

    In This Plan only A Few Selected Humans Complete this course of Action of God. Clearly without the Calling Of God..None Would Be "Saved".. Even With All Efforts involved We Learn that A Large Percentage God Doesnt Draw are Lost.

    My Conclusions of This Plan Results in God Failing To Save Perfectly or God Planning a Partialy successful Plan Where The Creation That He Infinitely Loves..He curses and Punishes.

    A Limited Amount of Mercy and Compassion Exists..God Appears To Not To Be The Infinite Being He Claims To Be.
    Would Man In His Search For Perfection Follow Such A God?
    Could He Trust Such A God To Even Be Able To Fulfill ANY Promises.?

    Remember All Are Cursed..That Is Real..Legally We Are All To Perish Unless Someone Saves Us From This Situation. God Planned That Only Jesus Could Save Anybody. God Dying For His Creation. A Savior From Outside The Cursed Bloodline.This Cursed Environment.

    ***Or In Gods Infinitely Merciful and Compassionate Wisdom Before The Creation Of The World Agrees With Himself That He Will Die To "Rescue" The Creation He Knows Will Fall Unders Gods Condemnation. Placing All Of Humanity Under Gods Mercy. Now Only God Can Save. He Dies For All Sin...100%.....All Condemnation concerning Sin Is Over
    (as Far As God In The Eternal Is Concerned)

    Why Didnt God Offer Mercy BEFORE Judgement?
    If Man Was Introduced To The Justice Of God First...Everything But God Would Have Failed!!!!
    Its His Plan... He Offered Judgement First.

    Or Why Didnt God Tell Mankind Not To Be Concerned With Sin? . Why Wasnt "Hell" Mentioned On The First Day...Of Its Eternal Implications..... Seeing A Majority of Humanity Will Eventually End Up There? So Some are led to Believe..

    Man Wants To Be God..Even To Be A Part Of Judging Himself Afterlife ...His Choice Would Be To Punish Himself Infinitely and Eternally. thats Carnal Mans Thinking. Partial..and Man Wants To Bring God Down TO Mans Level and Imply that God Chooses To Punish Mankind Forever..
    Thats A Lie ! God Is Infinite Love. *God Chose For Mankind.* ((((( He Chose For All )))).

    All Will Be Made Righteous. But In This Finite Time..We Live In These Carnal Bodies and Are Led and Are Controlled By The Carnal Mindset From The Original Curse until We Are Released From These Bodies and Environment of Decaying Creation. The Future Awaits All Mankind To Be Freed From This Curse. We Have To Die First to Receive New Bodies and Spirits.

    The Bible Concentrates on A Family in Mankinds History. Yes From Adam. The Human Source.
    But Our Family is One That Is Led By Faith..The Preisthood..We Are Being Trained To Be Priests Before Gods Creation. WE Are Being Drawn... Not All Creation. Only Gods Priests are Being Chosen and Trained. Only Gods Priests!!!. Gods Plan Is For Mankind To Co-Create Mankind.
    For Mankind To Be A Part Of Reconciling Mankind. For Mankind To Love Itself
    The Whole Creation Awaits The Completion of This PART Of Gods Plan.
    The Completion Of The "Sons of God"...or His Priests..To Be Chosen and Trained.
    Then and only Then will Gods Entire Creation *Begin* The Process Of Healing Itself.

    To Whom will inherite Christ Inheritance..His Priests..
    What Is The Inheritance...Reconciling Gods Creation Back To God!

    The Rest Of His Creation..The Larger Group That Was Not Drawn....
    All Of It..... None Will Be Lost..... Thats A Perfect Plan.

    We Start With A Perfect God...We Start with a Perfect Plan..

    Whats Perfect ? 10%....50%.....90%.....or 100% "Saved" Creation ?

    The Bible Is For Gods Priests...The Plan Is Much Larger Than You Give God Credit for...
    Does God Desire To Punish Anyone?...He Created Us..He Created The Parameters of Our Attitudes and Action. Good or Evil..He Know The Complete Choices Man Can Choose. He Knows Their Mistakes.
    God Died And Took The Punishment That We Deserved Unders His Perfect Law.
    No One Will Be Punished. God WILL OFFER MERCY TO ALL IN THE END OF HIS PLAN.
    and It Starts With His Priest Being Selected and Trained During Our Human Life..While We Are Alive.

    For Others..When They Shed The Human Cursed Body and Receive A New Beginning In Heaven. A Life That *Begins* With Reconciliation..

    Whats That..How About All Those Ministers of Reconciliation..
    Our Job Will Just Be Beginning.......

    Gods Priest are Being Trained On Earth To Reconcile ALL In Heaven...God Is All In All.

    Your Babies Are Saved..Everyone Will Be Made Whole In Gods Eternal Time.

    Everyone.

    Me2
     
  12. Helen

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    Well, I am definitely not a universalist, and I don't argue that babies are born with sin natures. Of course they are. We all are.

    But no one answered my question.

    How does a baby sin? What does a baby do that is a sin?

    Please, give me an action that a baby does that we can look at and say, "That is a sin. That is an offense against God."

    Thank you.
     
  13. KenH

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    All of us were in the loins of Adam when he sinned in the Garden of Eden as the federal head of the human race. We sinned with him. I cannot argue that if I had been there I would not have succumbed to the temptation to the eat the forbidden fruit. I would have done the same thing as Adam.

    Adam is the federal head of his people. Christ Jesus is the federal head, the Substitute, of His people. One cannot claim Jesus as his substitute without also claiming Adam as well(Romans chapter 5).
     
  14. Scott_Bushey

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    Helen,
    It seems apparent that your understanding of "original sin" does not condemn a person to eternal hell. Your implication is that since a infant does not, by it's own recognizance, sin, it is not responsible to the viral bloodline that has come down stream from father Adam. Am I misunderstanding you? Not until the child breaks a command of God is he cut out from the blessing of Heaven?
     
  15. Helen

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    Ken, I am not disagreeing with you. But 'the soul that sinneth shall die.'

    How does a baby sin?
     
  16. Scott_Bushey

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    Helen writes:
    Please, give me an action that a baby does that we can look at and say, "That is a sin. That is an offense against God."

    Scott states: Anger is sin!

    You state that "the soul that sinneth shall die".
    What are one of the secondary attributes of fallen man? "Death!" Babies die!

    [ October 19, 2002, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]
     
  17. Helen

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    Paul writed, "I would not have known what sin was except through the law."

    Scott, NO ONE is responsible for what they are born with. A blind baby is NOT responsible in the slightest for the fact that his mother had syphilis. My youngest son is NOT responsible for being born addicted to heroin because his mother was a streetwalker. My youngest daughter is NOT responsible because some of her cells stopped developing at a few weeks along and she was born with stunted and missing fingers and toes.

    And yet we can attribute all these, in the long run, to the fact of sin and its effect upon all creation.

    Will you -- will anyone -- then condemn that baby, or my son, or my daughter for what they were born with and struggle with daily?

    No, we are not sent to hell because of the natures we were born with. That is not justice, not mercy, not compassion, not love. And God is all of those.

    And if the soul that sins shall die, when was that soul alive that it then died? And when was the sin IT was responsible for that killed it?
     
  18. KenH

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    Helen, we all sinned in and with Adam. His sin is imputed to his people(just like they did it themselves) just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to His people(just like they did it themselves).
     
  19. Helen

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    Scott, if anger is a sin, then God is a sinner.

    Ken, we are affected by Adam's sin, but not held responsible for it. That is the point of Ezekiel 18.

    Consider also the second part of the second commandment: "...but showing love to thousands who love me and keep my commandments."
     
  20. tyndale1946

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    Helen said
    In the Garden of Eden!... Brother Glen
     

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