How does a Preterist Determine what is Metaphoric and what is Literal in Prophecy

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by revmwc, Jun 6, 2011.

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  1. revmwc

    revmwc
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    Isaiah 53:
    1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
    2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
    3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
    4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
    6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
    8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
    9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
    10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when hou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
    This has been fulfilled literally He came and was despised and rejected. Crucified for us.

    Earlier Isaiah had said about Messiah:
    Isaiah 9:
    6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

    This has been fulfilled partially and the fulfillment was literal. How would you determine the second part to mean a spiritual fulfillment in 70 A.D. if the first part as we know was literal. Achild was born and it was a son named Jesus. But the balance hasn't been fulfilled. Futurist as you call us believe it will be fulfilled literally. The first part has and Isaiah 53 was a literal fulfillment. What determines the prereist interpretation of a metaphorical (spiritual) fulfillment?

    Luke 1:

    30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
    31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
    32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
    33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
    34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
    35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    The child was conceived literally. Born and a Son named Jesus came as the Saviour. Did Mary expect that He would reign "spiritually" (metamorically) or did she expect a literal physical reign. Did She expect Him to rule on the Throne of David physiclly or spiritually?

    How as it conveyed by the Angels, a child would be conceived, He would be great, He is called the Son of the Highest and he would reign over the House of Jacob (Israel) for ever, their would be no end to His Kingdom. So how does a literal conception and Promise of all these things turn into a spiritual fulfillment especially coupled with the Isaiah passages?

    If God dealt literally at the first Coming will He not also deal literally with the second Coming and therefore 70 A.D could not have been the time He came. Because none of this is being fulfilled today that didn't occur in 3 or so B.C. to 30 A.D. upon His being rejected and crucified.
     
  2. JesusFan

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    Wondering how they handle Hebrews saying that the Messiah/High priest went back to Heaven, in His BODILY Form, and placed HIS BLOOD upon the alter of the heavenly temple?

    metaphorical or Spiritual?

    The temple that the earthly One was copied/built off of?
     
  3. asterisktom

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    Please give me a handle (chapter and verse) for this, JF, and I will see if I can handle it.
     
  4. asterisktom

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    The same reason that determined a spiritual temple after the physical one. God, according to His promise condescended to bring about the temple worship in the OT, but in the NT He spoke of a spiritual temple.

    First the physical and then the spiritual. This principle is found throughout the Bible.
     
  5. DHK

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    And does the Bible speak of a future physical temple?
     
  6. asterisktom

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    No, it does not.
     
  7. DHK

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    What is your opinion on Ezekiel 40-48. What temple is he describing in those 9 chapters?
     
  8. asterisktom

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    This is a temple that, aside from having unusual and interesting measurements, is associated with Levitical sacrifices and Mosaic observances, like circumcision. Because of what we read in Hebrews I don't see that the temple in Ezekiel is in the future.
     
  9. revmwc

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    Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
    12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
    13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days

    So where will the daily sacrifice be offered that Daniel refers to that will be taken away for 1295 days? It wasn't at 70 A.D. because the abomination that maketh desolate will be set up, it is not the temple being destroyed.

    Matthew 24: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
    16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    Notice here Jesus says when the "abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place" is it going to stand in the Holy Place in Heaven and we flee to the hills in heaven?
    This didn't happen prior to 70 A.D. so when will and where does it happen?

    After the Abomination is standing in the Holy Place in Israel temple Christ says this:

    22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    25 Behold, I have told you before.
    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Verse 29 the days are darkened after the 3 1/2 years and "then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. "

    All tribes see Him coming in the clouds. He said the "then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." All will see Him from all tribesof the earth not just Israel. He also said "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place" So the temple in Israel must be rebuilt or the Holy Place is in Heaven with the Abomination standing in it. Will God allow Abomination in Heaven?
     
  10. Grasshopper

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    You realize men like Spurgeon held this to be AD 70? It's hardly a new interpretation by wild-eyed preterists. Go back and read commentaries pre-Scofield.

    The question could also be asked of Dispies, when do you take verses literally or metaphoric.
     
  11. Grasshopper

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    But Tom, don't you understand the world will go back to that system someday? Who needs the atoning work of Christ in the MK.
     
  12. asterisktom

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    Rev, I started to answer your questions here but I'm just too tired now. I think I wore myself out swimming in the creek. Maybe tomorrow I will take a stab at it. But short answer is, yes, it did happen in the Jewish War. The math and the details fit quite nicely.

    May I also suggest that you study out some of the correlations from Daniel 9. BTW I have several in-depth studies of Daniel 9 here:
    http://asterisktom.xanga.com/710863790/the-seventy-weeks-of-daniel-9/
    http://asterisktom.xanga.com/607137215/more-on-daniel-924-27/
    http://asterisktom.xanga.com/605167131/six-promises-of-christ-to-his-people-updated-2010/
    http://asterisktom.xanga.com/605241930/seventy-weeks-one-unit/

    I have a few more too.
     
  13. asterisktom

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    Ayyy. Heaven forbid. Literally:laugh:
     
  14. revmwc

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    Do we need to forget the Lord Supper as a necessity to remember Christ, since the memorial sacrifices only represent past events and the Lord's supper is for a memorial then it can be done away just as the sacrifices have been if that is all a spiritual representation. Nothing is literal per your belief, so we should not baptize nor practice the Lord's supper since all is spiritual in commands.
    The millenial sacrifices are just that a memorial sacrifice to the Lord for what He has done for all.
    During the Tribulation when they still haven't trusted in Christ they will go back to their offerings since they don't see the Messiah as coming. Many Jews even today are still offering the sacricies, not as the order goes (i.e. the animals used) but they offer the sacrifices. Why is it hard to believe they will openly offer the sacrifices that Judaism requires. If you were a Jew and practicing orthodox Judsaism today you would offer those scarifices as part of your religious rituals. In the millenial reign the sacrifices will be offered as a memorial offering to the Lamb that was slain.
     
  15. JesusFan

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    One rule on interpretation that seems to not be followed by pretierists is the concept that many times in Biblical prophecy there are "short term'long term" dual fulfillments happening..

    That the intial fulfillment is a partial type of the final full one to come in Future...

    isaiah prophecy for a sign was fulfilled in the immediate, as the King of that time did have a child born to his line during hard times, but ultimnate fulfillment was birth of Christ...

    But failing to take this factor into account, can get some strange prophecy understandings!
     
  16. Grasshopper

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    So JesusFan gets to determine which prophecies have multiple fulfillments and which don't.
     
  17. Grasshopper

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    The obvious problem with your interpretation is the text to which Dispies use as their basis for the MK says the sacrifices are for sin not as a memorial. Never once does it hint they are for a memorial. You see why those on the preterist side laugh at those who claim they take the scripture literally while chiding preterist for doing exactly what you have done.
     
  18. JesusFan

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    NOPE...

    the Holy Spirit does, through the authors he inspired to write down word of God...

    Also, don't pretierists determine themselves which prophecies get spiritualized and explained away?
     
  19. revmwc

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    Which scripture are you refering to, please post it.

    Thanks,
     
  20. revmwc

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    That was the point of this whole discussion wasn't how do thye determine when to interpret it as literal and when spiritual (metaphorical).
     
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