How does OSAS fail the Sola Scriptura Test?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jun 19, 2010.

  1. BobRyan

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    Two primary ways for "OSAS" once saved always saved - to fail the test of scripture.

    1. Warnings given in the bible to the saints about the real danger of falling.

    2. Claims in the Bible that saved people were severed from Christ - fallen from Grace.

    Regarding that first problem area for OSAS - 1Cor 9 comes to mind.

    15 For though ye have ten thousand tutors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I begat you through the gospel. 1Cor 4:15



    1 Corinthians 15
    1 Now
    I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you
    , which also you received, in which also you stand,
    2 by which also
    you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you,
    unless you believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures
    ,
    4 and that
    He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,


    1Cor 9
    23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
    24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
    25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
    26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim;
    I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
    27 but
    I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified


    What are your thoughts?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. Dr. Walter

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    Bob,

    There are necessary presumptions built into your conclusions and scriptures you use.

    1. Warnings given in the Bible to PROFESSING saints of the real danger of falling.

    2. There are no claims that born again people were severed from Christ or have fallen from the STATE of grace.

    I have already answered I Corinthians 9.

    I Corinthians 15:2 is simply a matter of context which you have failed to allow to interpret. Vain faith is defined in verses 12-17 as those among them who deny essential gospel content. There had come in "some among them" teaching that there is no resurrection of the dead. Lost professors are always revealed either by the fruit of their eventual lifestyle or apostasy from essential truths.



     
  3. steaver

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    When I clicked on this thread I was prepared to glance at it and ignore it because you usually post about a dozen passages of scripture and it would take to long to answer each one with any meaningful discourse.

    I appreceate you have only posted two. I pray we can keep this pointed and concise and you will abstain from posting your full multi paged, multi colored library.

    Key verse here is...

    if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

    Jesus taught us that not all who say they believe are actually born of God.

    Jhn 8:31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;

    Jhn 8:36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

    We must take note of the "IFs" when it comes to who has truly received Jesus Christ as Lord and who is just "saying they have faith" as even James has pointed out. "Faith without works is dead".

    Take note that Paul says nothing about eternal life or salvation here. The focus is 1) preaching the gospel 2) Christian liberty 3) reward for preaching and living the gospel.

    1Cr 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

    1Cr 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

    1Cr 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation [of the gospel] is committed unto me.

    1Cr 9:18 What is my reward then? [Verily] that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

    1Cr 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some.


    What then is it Paul could be a "castaway" from?

    It would be from the very ordaination he was called to do "Preach the gospel". If Paul does not live the gospel he is preaching then he is disqualified of any reward for preaching the gospel.

    There is absolutely ZERO context that this should be viewed as a salvation issue.
     
  4. Dr. Walter

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    Bob,

    From previous discussions with you, I believe you admit to the reality of false professors? Am I right? In other words there are "tares" mixed with the true seed of the kingdom (Mt. 13).

    May I ask you how can we know the difference between the true and false professor? Can the false professor fall from his profession of grace?

    If you were a Biblical writer, and believed that real genuine children of God do not apostatize but false professors often do but neither you or true children of God can distinguish the false from the true apart from apostasy from the truth and from their profession of grace, how would you in practical terms, address all professing Christians you write to so that they could pragmatically identify false professors among them?
     
    #4 Dr. Walter, Jun 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2010
  5. steaver

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    Now that is Objectivity! :thumbs:

    Often you will here this...

    "the Apostle is writing to Christians"

    As if the Apostles had no understanding that there are false professors of faith among those who they write to.

    Secondly they are writing on behalf of God who would also want these tares among the wheat to examine themselves that they could possibly truly repent and be saved.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    There are many such places - Gal 5:4 "you have been severed from Christ - you have fallen from Grace" being not the least of them.


    In your answer you showed that you needed to ignore the 1Cor 4 and 1Cor 15 statements of Paul that he was the one preaching the Gospel to the church at Corinth - and then to argue in 1Cor 9 that since the people at Corinth are not those to whom Paul preached the Gospel - he can only be talking about "vocation".

    That was an extreme wrench of the text that the letter of 1Corinthians did not support. Now your statement is that you are happy with the result and that is fine. But do not expect the unbiased objective reader to be so willing to ignore the gap in your suggested bypass of Paul's statement in 1Cor 9.

    It is more than a little difficult to try and wash out "The Gospel" from 1Cor 15 or the fact that Paul is claiming in vs 1-4 that he is the one that preached that Gospel to the church at Corinth.

    The problem in your suggestion remains - and so my point remains.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. DHK

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    1John 2:19, John states that there were false prophets among them.

    1Cor.15 Paul indicates that there were some that even denied the resurrection. Only a false prophet would go that far, and they were trying to influence others to do the same.

    2Cor.3--It was false teachers that were demanding of Paul to bring "letters of commendation (or recommendation)". They wanted to see if he was an accredited teacher; graduated from the right seminary, recommended from the right people. Mind you it was Paul that started the church, lived in Corinth for a year and a half, won many of them to the Lord, discipled them, all before these false teachers had crept in.

    Acts 20:29ff He warns the church at Ephesus that false teachers will creep into their church unawares. He warns them what to look for.

    In 2John 9-11 he tells the lady not to allow anyone that brings not the doctrine of Christ even into her house. Don't even bid them good-bye, or God be with you. These were false teachers.

    Throughout his epistles, though not necessarily addressing false teachers, he addresses believers on what to look for in a false teacher. It is the false teacher that will fall away, not continue, not persevere, lead away others, etc. Of course he had nothing to fall away from in the first place. He was never saved. He was a false teacher.
     
  8. Dr. Walter

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    A careful study of the book of Galatians with particular care of certain words used in chapter one and chapter three fully demonstrate this is not an apostasy from the STATE of grace by the person but from the DOCTRINE of grace by the mind due to deception.

    I Corithians 15 still stands as interpreted by the context. "vain" is defined by those who deny the resurrection among them.

    The real problem is your interpretation of the law as applied to Christians for justification as a SLIDING STANDARD instead of an ABSOLUTE standard.

    James 2:10 is your "water lou" as James is speaking to CHRISTIANS and demands that there are not TWO standards of the law's righteousness but ONE for both the lost and the saved. Here is root problem to all your whole soteriological system of intepretation.

    If you admit to the standard of righteousness defined by James TO CHRISTIANS then your whole system of soteriology goes up in smoke instantly and forever as well as your alternative intepretations of these scriptures.

     
  9. BobRyan

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    A false professor cannot be severed from Christ or fallen from Grace as if he had Christ or had Grace. He may choose to become a Hindu at some point - but at no point is Paul arguing that the "lost should beware of becoming lostER".

    The efforts to tailor the warnings of scripture to producing "better lost people" is going totally the wrong direction simply to salvage an OSAS argument.

    I in fact do believe that never-were-saved people may choose to join themselves to a Christian church and remain in church the rest of their lives - or possibly later choose another religion. Their "never were saved" state is not change either if they remain or leave.

    I would never argue that all never-were-saved people that join the church - must choose to become hindu before they die.

    When Paul warns of falling from Grace and being severed from Christ he provides the context "You were running well - who hindered you".

    At no point do I argue that the never-were-saved people "were doing well" but then someone stopped them from continuing in their glorious state of lostness.

    On the other hand if I were writing in the Arminian context to those who WERE indeed "running well" and who were joined to Christ and who WERE under grace - and who then fell - I would write it very much like we see here.

    4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
    5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
    6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
    7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

    In the "never were saved case" I would have taken the above and written it as "you were never joined to Christ to begin with - and this proves it."

    I would write "you were living in rebellion against God the entire time - never obeying from the heart - and now this is the results - more failure to obey".

    If writing to the church instead of to "You" - perhaps it would be written "THEY never were running well to begin with - and this is just one more step in that pattern. First change the tree and then then fruit will be seen to be good fruit".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

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    1Cor 9

    22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
    23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.


    you seem to be struggling with the words in the text. I have placed the ones you are having difficulty with - in blue to help with focus.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

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    True. But in connection with the problem I pointed out with those who clearly reject/sidestep/ignore the teaching of Paul in 1Cor 9 and 1Cor 4 and 1Cor 15 in and effort to save the OSAS tradition from being abolished by the 1Cor 9 text - it is unclear to me whose argument you are making in your response above - mine or yours?

    Indeed it could be argued that instead of Paul writing

    1Cor 9
    22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
    23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
    24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
    25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
    26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim;
    I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
    27 but
    I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified

    Which causes so much havoc for OSAS - he could have written "some among you have argued that I am not qualified to preach the Gospel. I will have you know that I have buffeted my body and made it my slave that I might have the eternal prize of your approval in preaching the Gospel" - and though that point would be extremely strained - you make it clear that the OSAS argument needs to imagine that very thing - no matter what the inconvenient details in the text are seen to be - to the contrary.

    In any case I agree that the Acts 20 and Titus 1 problem of false teachers was a real problem for the NT church.

    But trying to spin 1Cor 9 into a chapter about false teachers and Paul seeking approval for his ministry - is a long shot. Seems to leave OSAS horribly exposed if you need to go to such an extreme to defend it in this case.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Dr. Walter

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    Bob, you are divorcing all common sense. Are you omniscient? Were the apostle omnisicient? How then can YOU or the APOSTLES tell who are the never were really saved from the really saved???? Do they smell different? Do they wear name tags that tell you? Do they always make professions that are different? Do they always fail to do good works (Mt. 7:22-23)?

    You make unwarranted assumptions by your interpretations of certain texts. It does no good to point out the contextual misinterpretation as you simply act like a Parrot and repeat it.

    The bottom line is that you call Christ a liar. He said "OF ALL" that the Father giveth me I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" and you say the very exact opposite.

    If the NEVER WERE SAVED people cannot be lost because they were never saved then they can't be given to the Son by the Father in the first place either can they because none given shall be lost???

    Then who are they? They must be those who profess salvation and later fall from that profession (I Jn. 2:19).




     
  13. BobRyan

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    1Cor 9
    22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

    23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
    24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
    25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
    26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim;
    I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
    27 but
    I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified

    Which causes so much havoc for OSAS - he could have written "some among you have argued that I am not qualified to preach the Gospel. I will have you know that I have buffeted my body and made it my slave that I might have the eternal prize of your approval in preaching the Gospel" - and though that point would be extremely strained - you make it clear that the OSAS argument needs to imagine that very thing - no matter what the inconvenient details in the text are seen to be - to the contrary.

    In any case I agree that the Acts 20 and Titus 1 problem of false teachers was a real problem for the NT church.

    But trying to spin 1Cor 9 into a chapter about false teachers and Paul seeking approval for his ministry - is a long shot. Seems to leave OSAS horribly exposed if you need to go to such an extreme to defend it in this case.

    No omniscience is required here - just accepting the text as it reads and "noticing" that the Arminian flavor of the text does not sit well with the tradition of OSAS.

    In the 1Cor 9 case Paul is not asking the reader to demonstrate omniscience.

    in the Gal 5:4 case it is the Word of God that identifies those who have "fallen from grace" and have been "severed from Christ".

    Those who were "running well" but then have fallen.

    This is not a case of the "blessed lost" becoming "loster".

    Again you miss the mark. My point is that of the two choices - the writing appears to be to those who "were running well" INSTEAD of those who "never were running well at all because in fact they were lost the entire time" (as many here like to eisegete into the text).

    Good pulpit pounding and accusing - poor evidence.

    Again you carefully leave out the part of the text that does not fit OSAS "who who BELIEVES" in vs 40. Never does Christ apply this to "he who USED to believe but no longer believes".

    Your argument from John 6 keeps fading out at that point. You are simply not getting passed it.

    Your logic is failing miserably.

    It is more than a little obvious that someone who never had salvation cannot lose what they never had.

    Your efforts to bend the Gal 5:4 text to say that the lost are being warned against becomging "lostER" is self-conflicted both on the surface and clear to the bone.

    1John 2 does not claim that something was "lost". It is simply a test to show who is not saved. John is careful not to use terms like "fallen from Grace" or "severed from Christ" or "disqualified from the Gospel". Because in the 1John 2 case he is simply talking about the lost - choosing to leave the church. Not once does he argue that only the saved choose to remain in church - since obviously the church will have both the saved and the lost - still in it.

    For the specific point of controversy "can salvation be LOST" we have to go to texts that speak to the that point (as I indicated in the OP) - such as 1Cor 9 and Gal 5.

    You are simply "Reaching" when you go to 1John 2.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. DHK

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    And why would he do that? He was a humble man; not a boastful and proud man. He was using athletic illustrations to challenge the Corinthians to go forward in service for the Lord. There is no hint of anything about salvation in that passage. You are reading into the passage something that is not there. An athlete trains for the Olympics. If he doesn't train well he doesn't become a "non-athlete." He is not condemned by losing his athleticism. No, he sits on the bench and watches the others compete. He is still an athlete and perhaps a good one, but he has not trained well enough to compete with the cream of the crop. Paul wanted the best, and to give his best for the Lord. There was only ONE that would win the race. So run that you would win that race. It was a challenge to run the race. It does not mean that in the end only one Christian will make it to heaven and all others will be condemned. This is the logical conclusion you must come to. The challenge is to run the race as if you will be the one to win the race. Paul didn't want to sit on the bench. He wanted to be in the race participating. He wanted to be:
    The pitcher in baseball,
    The first-line center in hockey,
    The first-line center in basketball,
    The quarterback in football,
    The fastest 100 and 200 meter runner.
    The world champion boxer.

    --Notice, losing any of the above races doesn't not disqualify the athlete from his position of being an athlete. What a ridiculous position to take. That is the position you must take in order to fight against OSAS.
    Whatever the race was, Paul wanted to be first. This was the lesson he was giving. And the greatest race was the race that Christ put us in the day we got saved:

    Hebrews 12:1 ...let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
    I believe I have just demonstrated that it is your position that is very strained. In fact it makes no sense at all.
    In most of the chapter Paul defends his apostleship:

    1 Corinthians 9:3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
    "My answer": The following verses (after vs.3) is his defense.
    "To them": Them are the false teachers. They are the ones that are "examining Paul.
    vs.24-27--Paul ends the chapter with a challenge to Christian service.
     
  15. steaver

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    If only Bob could remove the blurred glasses placed on him by the SDA church he could actually see the true lessons in the scriptures.

    It is sad really, to see a person so devoted to studying scripture and put so much time and effort into wood, hay and stubble.

    Bob, have you ever sat down and said to God, "I am setting aside all I have been indoctrinated to believe and I am asking You Lord to teach me what these scriptures really mean" ??

    It takes humility to do this. You cannot go into it carrying the SDA monkey on your back. You would have to disregard all that they have forced upon you and just let the Spirit speak to you.

    Isn't the truth more important to you than any loyalities to a church, or family, or friends?

    Please pray about it. Many before you have humbled themselves and have found themselves departing from the SDA, JWs and Mormon churches. There is a good reason for this, you should consider why.

    DHK had to leave the RCC behind. I am sure that he had friends or family that he had to grieve but chose to grieve them rather than the Holy Spirit of God.

    Paul had to leave his Phariseeism behind and counted it as dung even. The SDA church just picked up what the Judiazers begun as recorded in Acts 15.

    Pray about it.
     
    #15 steaver, Jun 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2010
  16. BobRyan

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    I had hoped for something like "substance" in your reponse to the glaringly obvious flaw in your wild idea that is so transparently exposed in that "no salvation" fiction you tried.

    Oh well... I suppose we can wait.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    DHK seems to claim that we should bend the text above to read "some among you have argued that I am not qualified to preach the Gospel. I will have you know that I have buffeted my body and made it my slave that I might have the eternal prize of your approval in preaching the Gospel" - and though that point would be extremely strained - DHK you make it clear that the OSAS argument needs to imagine that very thing - no matter what the inconvenient details in the text are seen to be - to the contrary.

    ...trying to spin 1Cor 9 into a chapter about false teachers and Paul seeking approval for his ministry - is a long shot. Seems to leave OSAS horribly exposed if you need to go to such an extreme to defend it in this case.



    Which is why "disqualified from being an evangelist" makes no sense.

    The one training for the olympics will not get the prize if he stops training.

    But even worse for your view - Paul argues "I buffet my body and make it my slave" so that he will not be disqualified from the Gospel that he is preaching. He does not say "I train instead of not training" rather he says that he trains - to the extreme instead of merely lazily preparing.

    It is far worse for OSAS than you have at first supposed.

    Losing the race - loses the immortal, eternal benefit of the Gospel - which Paul has already explicitly identified as being salvation.

    22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
    23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.


    I realize that the argument for OSAS requires that you pretend not to notice the obvious here - but repeatedly doing it - only makes it worse.


    All you did is bring up another disaster for OSAS.

    Heb 12
    1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
    2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
    3 For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
    4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;

    14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord
     
  18. Dr. Walter

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    Verse 40 is the CONSEQUENCE of being given in verses 37-39 not the CAUSE for being given. Jesus states that being given is the CAUSE for coming.

    Absolute proof that verse 40 is consequentially related to verse 37-39 is that verse 39 defines the phrase "I will raise him up at the last day" to be CONFIRMATION of the immediate previous phrase "I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING" and it is this same phrase that concludes verse 40 proving they are the SAME PEOPLE (the given) in a CAUSE and CONSEQUENCE relationship where none given to Christ will be lost:

    39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Now, will you honestly deal with this evidence?

    1. Can you deny that FIRST MENTION of the ending phrase in verse 39 confirms the preceding declaration "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING"?

    2. Can you deny that GIVING is the stated CAUSE of coming to Christ in verse 37?

    3. Can you deny that believing in Christ is inseparable from coming to Christ - vv. 37,40?

    4. Can you deny therefore that believing in Christ is the CONSEQUENCE of first being GIVEN to Christ by the Father in verse 39?

    5. Can you deny that "of all" which the Father gave Christ I SHALL LOSE NOTHING and they are those described in the next verse (v. 40) by the same phrase first used to describe those in verse 39 which are "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING"?
     
  19. Dr. Walter

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    Bob,

    The simple truth is that I Corinthians 9 does not deal with the issue of losing salvation but with the issue of not invalidating the effectiveness of your own ministry before the eyes of men due to demanding your rights and thus being faithful to practices necessary to make ones vocational calling useful by God. In the case of Paul it was his call to the gospel ministry. In the case of those he was writing it could be various other ministries but yet each ministry was concerned with the furtherance of the gospel according to how they were gifted and called.

    It is this goal of being used in whatever capacity or calling for the spead of the gospel that Paul wants to remain a partaker with them.

    This is the "dispensation" he has been given and will be held accountable whether he does it willingly or not.

    You want the last verse to read "I should become LOST" but it does not say that.

    In the context of Olympic sports a "castaway" simply means disqualified. In this immediate context it is disqualification for what they are running for - a crown. They are not running in order to be saved. They are not running to be justified before God to enter heaven. They are running to receive a "crown" for faithfulness to their calling as a Christian not to become a Christian. What would set him apart as unusuable in the ministry is also described in the context - claiming and demanding his rights at the expense of hindering the effectiveness of his ministry in the eyes of men.
     
  20. Jon-Marc

    Jon-Marc
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    OSAS doesn't fail any test. When I was saved, God gave me ETERNAL life--not temporary life until my next sin, which was probably that same day. God is full of live grace and mercy. When He saves someone, they STAY saved.
     

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