How does the Calvinist and Armenian respond to such verses?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Jordan Kurecki, Nov 17, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,452
    Likes Received:
    60
    John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

    John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    2Peter3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Also how does the Armenian respond to this in relation to losing salvation:
    "So I got to thinking about the blood of Jesus and I had a very interesting thought, When I was younger I would watch a lot of shows on criminal investigation and forensics, something I remember is that many times a murdered would kill someone and then go and try and clean the blood off of whatever surface the victim's blood was on, and it never mattered how much they tried to clean, they could use chemicals, they could wipe things down, but there would almost always be traces of that victims blood on the surface, blood is extremely difficult to clean basically, and that thought got me excited about the fact that Jesus blood has been applied to my soul and that it doesn't matter how much I mess up or how many times I sin, because even I can't get rid of the blood of Jesus from my soul! "

    John 10:28-29 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know (Can you ever really know if it can be lost?) that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    Let just say that I do not really consider myself Armenian or Calvinist,
    I believe that God in his grace brings fallen man to a position by giving light where he can make a decision to accept or reject him, I believe if her rejects God may give him over to a reprobate mind and allow him to spiral downward in his depravity, I also believe in Eternal security of the believer which is where I differ with most Armenians, But I differ with Calvinists in that I do not believe God ordains only some to salvation while condemning others based on his sovereignty . So I guess you could say im sort of in the middle

    I would like to say that I'm somewhere in the middle of the Armenian and the Calvinist.

    I believe that God in his grace elevates every man to a position where they can make a decision to reject or accept him and the light that he gives them, if they reject I believe God will just leave them in their own depravity, I do not believe that God has pick and chosen for certain ones to be saved or to be damned, I believe he has chosen and elected those who he foreknew would accept Christ to be saved, In this aspect i disagree with the Calvinist on election.

    I also believe that God will for his honor and glory maintain the believers salvation for eternity, So I do hold to the doctrine of eternal security and differ with Armenians in that aspect.
    So am I considered a Calvinist or an Armenian? I consider myself a Biblicist I suppose.
     
    #1 Jordan Kurecki, Nov 17, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2013
  2. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,407
    Likes Received:
    328
    It is Arminian, not Armenian. Those poor folks have been castigated by uninformed Arminians for ages now!
     
  3. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with all of this. Where I might differ is that I do not believe in Original Sin. But in everything else we agree.

    We already have a fella here who calls himself a Biblicist, and he is an absolute Reformed/Calvinist.

    But I know what you mean.

    And it is Arminian, not Armenian. Armenians are people from Armenia.
     
  4. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    You know, just the other day I ran into an Arminian Armenian. He was a nice bolk.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Reads like pure Arminianism.

    So also John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL unto Me"

    And 1John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice (NIV) for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

    But for the Calvinist this reads like "so many Bible texts to downsize".

    Of course you could add

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received him not" John 1.

    "Jerusalem Jerusalem how I WANTED to spare your children... but you would not" Matt 23.


    It is of course a good story - but how does God tell it?

    in Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" saying "I forgave you ALL that debt" - but then returning the full debt to the unthankful servant and saying "SO shall My Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive ..."

    And of course Gal 5:4 speaking of those who "have FALLEN from Grace" and "have been SEVERED from Christ"

    Rom 11
    13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
    14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them.

    15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

    16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

    18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”


    20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

    22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
    23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


    1Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified"

    Promises to the saved are never in the context of "The saved saint that has turned against God in rebellion"

    John 10:28-29 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. [/quote]

    Matt 7 says "by their fruits you shall know them"

    Romans 2:7-16 makes it very clear those who simply "say" the right words are not going to be saved. Just as was stated in Matt 7.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #5 BobRyan, Nov 17, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2013
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
    Jordan Kurecki
    All men are not going to be saved.....yet all men...jew and gentile,not the jew only will be saved.

    Men are given the light of nature and conscience...by Jesus as Creator.


    .


    but is longsuffering to us-ward.....the elect, the beloved.....
    2 Peter 3

    King James Version (KJV)

    3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

    So God is long suffering bearing with the sin and evil of the ungodly until all the elect are saved.

    God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked.:wavey:

    it is...everyone believing in...
    16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.




    John 10:28-29 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know (Can you ever really know if it can be lost?) that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


    The bible does not say this anywhere....

    Romans 1 has been true since Genesis.


    God has elected some sinners to salvation...
    Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
    1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
    ( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

    2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
    ( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

    3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
    ( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

    4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
    ( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

    ,

    God does not react to man as if he has to learn anything.This is pure error.

    You do not agree with scripture here.
     
  7. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,407
    Likes Received:
    328
    A nice bolk was he? Are you making a funny bloke?
     
  8. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,407
    Likes Received:
    328
    You're a little late to the party.
     
  9. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,452
    Likes Received:
    60
    everything you said falls apart with the first verse I quoted, If only the "Elect" are able to be saved, then why does it say that all men might be saved, it obviously implies that all men have a chance at salvation.
     
  10. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,452
    Likes Received:
    60
    the Galatians verse is talking about those seeking justification through the law rather than by faith, not talking about losing your salvation anyone who honestly looks at the context can see that.
    and the Romans is talking about how the Jews as a nation have been cut off from God because they are not really Jews in their hearts. Chapter 11 is clearly talking about God's dealing with the Jews in relation to the Church. You gotta know the context again, has nothing to do with salvation as much as it has to do with God not working through the Jews as a nation and his turning over to using the church as his main instrument of dealing with mankind.

    And the verse from Paul talking about being a castaway: he is talking about being disqualified from receiving rewards in heaven due to living in the flesh. in fact I am disgusted at your twisting of this scripture upon my own examination of the context:1Co 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
    1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

    1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
    1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
    1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
     
    #10 Jordan Kurecki, Nov 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    The term "men" is placed in italics by the KJV indicating it is not found in the Greek text and it is not. The term "all" represents the Greek term "pas" found in the anathrous construction (without the definite article) and is used by New Testament writers to express characterization of kinds and thus kinds of men (races, genders, classes).This is not "all" without exception as in every human being from Adam to the last human born but "all' without distinction with the purposeful intent (subjunctive aorist "might be saved) they should be saved. This is well stated in John 17:2 by the fact that The Father did not give His Son "ALL FLESH" to give eternal life to, but only "as many as" out of "ALL FLESH" that the Father had "given" to the Son for that purpose. If your position were correct, then the Father would not have placed a LIMITATION on those given the Son for that end would he? Instead, John 17:2 would have read:

    "As thou has given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many of them that will come to Him for it."

    But it does not say that does it? It says rather:

    As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    Notice that giving by the Father is the condition for obtaining eternal life by the Son rather than vice versa. In John 6:37-39 "ALL" that the Father gives Son does come to Christ for eternal life and NONE "of all" given are lost. Hence, the Father did not give any to the Son that will not be given eternal life and be eternally saved. So it is the Father that has placed the limitation on whom He gives to the Son to obtain eternal life. So John 1:9 is not a "might" of uncertainty but a "might' of certainity with a definite number of mankind in view ("as many as" the Father gave to that end) and "all" races, classes and genders without distinction of kind but a clear distinct limitation in number as those who obtain salvation are "chosen TO salvation" - 2 Thes. 2:13 rather than "chosen BECAUSE of salvation."

    Van misrepresents peoples positions and their persons and he does it intentionally and often. He told you that I was a "Reformed/Calvinist" and that is simply a lie. I am a Sovereign Grace Landmark Missionary Baptist if someone wants to know what I am technically and correctly.


    Context is a wonderful thing when correctly interpreting a verse and so it is here. Please take note that contextually John first defined what he means by "light" and "life" in verse 4. Let us read it together:

    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    He is the source of both PHYSICAL and SPIRITUAL life. As humans "cometh into the world" he is the source of their PHYSICAL life. As humans are reborn in connection with Faith in Christ He is the source of SPIRITUAL life (vv. 9-13).on

    Note that verse 4 follows verses 1-3 that deal with NATURAL creation and the "light" in verse 4 concerns when man "COMETH INTO THE WORLD" by NATURAL birth. They received their NATURAL light/life from Christ as Creator.

    Notice verses 9-13 deal with NEW LIFE by NEW BIRTH and He also is the source of SPIRITUAL light/life when men are saved.

    Others have provided answers to the remaining verses so I will not repeat them.
     
  12. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    Ah yes, autocorrect is a bit of a challenge these days.
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
    Jordan Kurecki

    Not at all.That verse does not mean what you think it does.

    You asked a question as if you wanted an answer but it seems as if that is not so.
    Only the elect will be saved.If you can "save anyone who God has not elected....go right ahead:thumbsup:

    humanly speaking we bring the gospel to all men.

    The bible does not teach that all men get a "chance" at salvation.
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,114
    Likes Received:
    52

    the death of Jesus provided and was intended by the Father to bring out a chosen peoples for His glory, and ALL to get saved by that act of Jesus ould be sent the Gospel and the Sprit to confirm their election was sure, by them receiving Jesus!

    And salvation is from start to finish the work of the Lord, for how can dead and rebellious sinners at war with Him suddently desire on theirown to come to Him and surrender?
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Good points from John 1.

    And notice that in John 1 Christ is the "creator of the WORLD" not just the creator "of at least one person in each KIND of culture in mankind" as some Calvinists would downsize it.

    vs 9 "the TRUE Light which coming into the WORLD enlightens EVERY man"
    vs 10 "He was in the WORLD and the WORLD was MADE through Him"


    Ahh the downsizing crews are already at work trying to whittle down the text. but John puts it in such a way that it is impossible for them to get the watered-down small-size down-sized version of it that will "fit" Calvinism.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,452
    Likes Received:
    60
    2Pe_1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    This is the folly of the Calvinist, Continually redefining scripture to fit with their own theological beliefs.
     
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    I think you are really describing arminianism and just don't realize it.
     
  18. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,452
    Likes Received:
    60
    Calvinists consistently redefine phrases like "the world" and "all men" to mean the elect.

    the world does not mean the elect, it means the world.

    All men does not mean the elect... it means all men.

    Take the bible for what it says, If I took the Calvinist type approach to scripture then I might as well just be a 7th day Adventist arguing about what Everlasting means and I might as well start denying a literal burning hell. Calvinist do the same thing the SDAs do.
     
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    I responded to your OP but you have made no response to my post! No one on this forum has attempted to demonstrate why my expositon of John 1:4-13 is incorrect. If you can demonstrate my exposition is incorrect then do so!
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
    Evidently his real agenda is now exposed.He has no biblical response that will stand up to any scrutiny,so attack Cals in general with no attempt to offer anything biblically.We have seen this before once or twice:thumbs:
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...