How much of Christ can a person distort and still worship the one true Christ?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Daniel David, Mar 4, 2004.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Have you ever wondered this?

    I mean, if you take a picture of a family member and put it on one of those programs that lets you adjust the face all around, how much can you change before it doesn't even resemble the same person?

    The same is true of Christ. Many people say they worship Christ. They claim to be christians. Are they?

    Does the Jehovah Witness who denies that Christ is eternal worship the same Christ as believers?

    Does the Mormon who says Christ and Satan are brothers worship the same Christ as believers?

    Does the Muslim who says Christ did not actually die on the cross worship the same Christ as believers?

    Do ya' know what I mean? Huh, do ya' Vern? Do ya'?
     
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

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  3. Daniel David

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    Hmmm, profound, yet to the point.
     
  4. donnA

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    Any distortion of the biblical Christ is a different christ, a false christ. One example might be a spiritually weak Christ who needs strengthening from a human.
     
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

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  6. Dr. Bob

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    Problem with the premise comes to mind. WHO is saying that the image is "distorted"? Maybe to me it is clarifying and refining the image, while the same twist of the dial is unfocusing it in someone else's view.
     
  7. Watchman

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    Daniel David: A good question, but a poor Ernest.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    That aside, this is no laughing matter, in fact, I do not know, nor can I imagine a more serious matter than the answer to The Lord's question,
    Whom say ye that I Am?"
    We are doing a study through the Gospel of John now and a few weeks ago we looked at John 8:24:
    "Therefore I said unto you that you will die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I Am He, you shall die in your sins."
    We all came to the conclusion that HE here must be who He really and truly is.
    He is not Michael the Archangel, the brother of the devil, just another prophet, etc...
    Another thing He is not: He is not CO-anything.
    He is not co-mediator, He is not co-redeemer and those who believe this, well, John 8:24.
     
  8. Johnv

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    Yes. The truth is, we ALL distort Christ in some form. Some humanize him too much, some divinize him too much. Probably the biggest distortion is the refuse to attribute any human aspects at all to Jesus (the idea that Jesus learned, or made normal human non-sinful mistakes is completely appalling to some). Some folks see the idea that Jesus could have caught a cold, gotten a cavity, cut his finger, or gone to the bathroom as heretical.

    Where I draw the line is any place where Jesus' nature is clear (not implied or interpreted) biblical doctrine.
     
  9. donnA

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    I like your way of thinking Joseph.
     
  10. Daniel David

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    Johnv, are you saying that no one knows the portrait of Christ? Isn't that just a reflection of your postmodernism?

    On what grounds do you say that everyone distorts Christ? Is there a verse that says that?

    Did Paul and John have a correct portrait of Christ?

    Please explain your post.
     
  11. Johnv

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    The issue at hand is not whether we have a portrait of Christ, it is whether a person who has a distorted view of Christ can worship Christ?

    Hardly. Only those who have met Jesus face to face have an undistorted view of Christ. That would not include any of us to date.

    :confused: I can't find a verse that says we've all seen Jesus face to face either.
    I believe Paul and John both met Christ, literally. We won't meet him face to face until we are dead. I don't see ho this is in any way a "postmodern" idea. I don't even know what postmodernism is. I just go with what the Bible says and where the Spirit leads.
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    by JohnV:
    While you're at it, JohnV, maybe Jesus did have a childhood sweetheart ? Or a childhood crush ? And maybe there is some truth to what some are saying that he and Mary, Martha and Lazarus' sister, had "something going on" ? Or, maybe, he did have a "special" friendship with Lazarus like some gay (I hate how they have given a new meaning to that word) groups are suggesting, the same way they are suggesting that David and Jonathan were homosexual lovers ?

    He may have experienced hunger, true, because hunger is a very normal human experience, even before sin came into Eden. Like any human being, he needed to work, because work, along with marriage, is a God-given human need. Work and hunger were not caused by sin.

    But the common cold and teeth cavities, headaches, and the like ? They are conditions brought about by a fallen world, a once perfect creation made imperfect and ugly by sin.

    Gone to the bathroom ? Maybe. But I think that is too mundane, too commonplace, that the Holy Spirit did not feel it will benefit God's children to know. Cut his finger ? Possibly. Again, that will be speculative.
     
  13. Daniel David

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    Johnv, I have the Scriptures. That is the perfect reflection of Christ. As long as I get my theology from the word, I am going to have an accurate portrait of Christ. I don't have to wait until I am dead.

    Do you disagree about the Scriptures? That might be your problem.

    Btw, the Spirit leads all true believers. He has inspired Scripture that we may know God. That is how he leads. Please hijack a different thread if you want to rely upon gnosticism.
     
  14. vaspers

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    Johnv, I partially agree and partially disagree with your viewpoint here.

    I agree, in that we now "see through a glass darkly, but then face to face [when Christ returns]"

    I disagree, in that, as Daniel David posted, we do have the scriptures to let us know the Living Word (Jesus) by way of the Written Word (Bible).

    I agree, in that no one has 100% perfect doctrine. Even Paul and Peter disagreed on spiritual issues like legalism and so on. Even Paul sometimes said, "This is my thought on the subject, not the command of the Lord."

    I disagree, in that there are certain limits to a correct interpretation of who Christ is, and deviation is accursed: Christ is the Son of God, the only Way, the only Savior of the world, He came in the flesh (was not a Gnostic apparition or purely spiritual entity without physical substance), He is Light, He is Without Sin, He condemns sin, He commands us to love and struggle against sin, etc.

    It would be a great spiritual exercise to list the absolute requirements for a saving interpretation of Jesus Christ. For example, I never say "God the Son" because it is not strictly biblical. I always say "Son of God," or "My Lord and My God," but not "Second Person of the Triune Godhead" which is theological, not strictly Biblical. (I know I'll get a lot of flak for this post. That's okay. Many of us are used to being criticized online. Ha!)

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  15. Johnv

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    Nothing I've said in this thread has contradicted scripture.
     
  16. Daniel David

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    I am talking about the use of the Scriptures. Do you agree or disagree that the Scriptures are the perfect reflection of Christ?

    Vaspers, Paul and Peter disagreed on nothing. Peter was in sin and Paul rebuked him for it.
     
  17. Karen

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    Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses are cults that teach false doctrine. Most here I think realize that. The question really is what about an individual member or a Baptist with heretical doctrine.
    In an individual case, we probably just don't know. I think of some of my ancestors over a hundred years ago. They lived on the frontier, were illiterate so could not read the Bible, church services were occasional with a circuit rider. But some cults did sweep through and attracted some of those ancestors. To what extent they rejected truth, versus they were ignorant, I do not know. I do know that God dealt with them in justice, holiness, love, and mercy.

    I also know that I truly became a Christian at the age of ten. I became a Christian because of faith and repentance. However, I did not know what a virgin was to clearly believe in the Virgin Birth. When I was older, I understood it and accepted it, but I had been a Christian all along.

    Karen
     
  18. Daniel David

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    Okay, there are explicit statements made about Christ throughout the N.T. If a person changes them, doesn't it become a different Jesus than what the Scriptures say?

    1. He was conceived within a virgin.
    2. He is fully God.
    3. He is fully man.
    4. Salvation must be through him.
    5. He is Lord.
    6. He is the Lion of Judah.
    7. etc.

    Does a person have the right to just remove one or more of those and still have an accurate view of Christ?

    For example, let us take no. 6. What would you say to a person who completely denied it, yet said they agreed with everything else?
     
  19. Charles Meadows

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    "I am talking about the use of the Scriptures. Do you agree or disagree that the Scriptures are the perfect reflection of Christ?"

    They are THAT - but I'd wonder about your ability to really comprehend them. If the Christ you see is one who went around with a frown uttering proverbs here and there and never displaying any of his REAL humanity. If JohnV is a gnostic then you're a docetist! :cool:
     
  20. Daniel David

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    Chuckles, I don't deny that at all. I think Christ was the perfect example of joy and kindness. He was fully human.

    Now, it is unwise if not dangerous to delve into issues that the Scripture does not speak about.
     

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