How to salvage OSAS in view of Rom 11 and 2Tim2

I have never made the argument here that if you sin after being saved - you are lost.

I have never made the argument here that if one is a sinner they must first reach some certain milestone after accepting Christ before they are saved.

But I have said a lot of other things that you might want to object too - just not those things.

Should I quote Romans 11 or 2Tim 2 "again"?

Christ was right in John 15 when he shows branches removed from the vine and then burned in the fire.

James is right when he declares that those who show the faith "of demons" are in fact showing "dead faith"

 

In this sentence you innexplicable CLAIM to defend what you state you would not want to start with as an a priori bias.

Ok so taking the "best view" of that statement - we BOTH agree that starting with the bias to "shield OSAS from scripture" is not good and NEITHER is getting to a result of "works based salvation".

BUT IF you mean to define "works based salvation" as "anything but OSAS" THEN you have circular reasoning in your statement above. You would then be saying that although you do not START wanting to defend OSAS and shield it from scripture - you DO START with the bias of thinking that ANY denial of OSAS is "unstable salvation" and "salvation by my own efforts".

However if you are willing to say that you would consider the BIBLE as your standard for "what constitutes works based salvation" then lets take another look at James 2 and Romans 2. Let's agree first and formost that the "GOSPEL" Paul affirms in Romans 2 to be IN that chapter is not a "salvation by works" Gospel.

And then lets let scripture STAND AS IS - and let man made tradition "fall" as we go through the text to see just how DETAILED the bible can be about this "Saved by Grace" salvation when it comes to its proper relationship to works.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Is this you defining "Works based salvation" as "anything but OSAS"???

Or are you asking an objective question here?

If it is really an objective question then yes - I would say that while OSAS is pure error so also is works-based-salvation is as well if we use the term "as the BIBLE defines it".

The argument that "never saved" was stated in the text - is not a form of exegesis - it is pure eisegesis. The text NEVER says that the problem for the failing case (those IN the vine who are then cast out and burned) is that those lost (supposedly LOST while In the vine) went from "lost to loster" as you seem to suppose.

Think about it!

God is NOT arguing for a "better way to be lost"!!

The text of John 15 and Rom 11 "IN the vine" places BOTH the failing AND the succeeding cases together IN the vine IN Christ at the start. It argues that they need to STAY THERE.

NEVER does the bible argue that the Lost need to STAY LOST!

You seriously need to consider dropping your man made bias on this to get to the text itself!

In Rom 11 and John 15 Christ does not argue NNE IN the vine is saved until after the time of the Cross!

In the Rom 11 and John 15 example of "IN the VINE" and abiding IN Christ - He does not argue that to be IN ME is to "BE LOST"!

In the Rom 11 and John 15 example of "IN the VINE" and abiding IN Christ - Christ clearly says WE are to FEAR for "NEITHER will HE spare you". This is a statement to the SAVED to those pictured in BOTH cases as being IN THE VINE and SAVED! It is the case for perseverance that EVEN the 3 and 5 point CALVINISTS get clearly!

Instead of being offended that this obvious point in the text is being brought out - why not stop clinging to your bias for a second and simply run with it??!!

 

here again you insert your bias where you should have been objective instead and simply dealt with the text of scripture.

Start with these rules for a change.

#1. When I read a text I don't like because it does not fit OSAS - I can not blame Bob for it.

#2. When I read a text that does not fit OSAS I can not jump wildly to a teaching that "these texts are not for me" to get out of it and save OSAS.

#3. When I read those texts I will EXEGETE THE DETAILS in a way that does NOT first INSERT OSAS!

This may seem to be offensive or contradictory to what you would wish - but give it a shot anyway for the sake of this discussion with me. Just give it ONE try!

In Christ,

Bob

 

A four Point Calvinist (Baptist) and all those Arminian Baptists that cling to OSAS while rejecting the Bible doctrine on Perseverance would say resoundingly "YES STILL SAVED because no choice for rebellion after salvation will get you lost".

The 3 and 5 point Calvinists (baptists) and all those Arminian Baptists that cling to OSAS and insist on the Bible doctrine of Perseverance will complain about your statement that the person is saved and then fails to persevere as you propose. In other words they deny that what you describe could ever happen in all of time.

In my opion your scenario is correct and both groups listed above are wrong.

In Christ,

Bob

 

What a great testimony - I had almost given up on anyone steeped in OSAS allowing the Bible evidence to be accepted.

As some have said here about John 15 (being case out of the vine of Christ and burned) and Romans 11 (being cast out of the vine of Christ) and 2Tim 2 (being denied by Christ) -- "Those texts should not be allowed to apply to NT Christians today so ignore them".

Others have said of them "That just means you don't get millennium perks not that you lose salvation".

The Myriad ways to avoid the text of scripture and cling to OSAS "anyway" seems to be without limit.

I am encouraged by your testimony.

In Christ,

Bob

 

#1. I did not write Romans 11 - so don't blame it's existence on me as if "mean ol Bob gave us this text and now we have to fis it".

#2. You are STILL playing games here. We both admit that BEING out -- being broken off and out - is "the lost state" -- but that OBVIOUS problem you are glossing over is that to have BEEN TAKEN OUT they had to have BEEN IN!! The OBVIOUS point I was making is that WHILE IN they were SAVED just as SAVED as those that Paul writes to who ARE presently IN and who are told to "FEAR for if God did not spare those other branches that WERE IN but were then TAKEN OUT -- neither will He spare you"!!

It is a devastating point - and yet you think that if you gloss over it -- I will not notice.

What makes you think that such tactic will work?

In Christ,

Bob

 

In John 15 Christ does not declare to His followers "ALL Jews are IN the vine by definition so don't fall out". It is clear that it is only the saved that are IN in John 15.

The same thing is true for Romans 11 it is the saints that are IN and the ones that WERE TAKEN out ALSO used to be IN.

It is the principle of the fall of a SAVED person that is the problem. Once we admit to the obvious (that being IN the vine of Christ) is saved - then having them TAKEN out is the doom of OSAS. Worse than this Christ not ONLY says this is true of those who WERE taken out - but He also says to those that are currently IN the vine "YOU too fear for if He did NOT SPARE them NEITHER will He spare you"

The imaginatve ways needed to shield the man made tradition of OSAS from this text are almost without limit. I give credit to GE for looking for them but when you tire of that - try exegeting the text of Romans 11 "instead".

In Christ,

Bob

 

As you read the details in the text of Romans 11:20 why do you think Paul says "to fear"??

Far from simply “writing off unsaved Jews” as some have imagined here. Paul says “He is able to GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN”. The current scenario is not only that WE should fear “for if He did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you” but also ”He is able to graft them in again”. This is truly the death of OSAS.

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Why does Paul say in Rom 11:21 "Neither will he spare you" who is the "you" and what is the "you" supposed to take away from that instruction?

When Paul says "if you continue in His kindness" is "YOU" a saved person?

When Paul says "otherwise YOU will be cut off" in vs 22 is being "cut off" a saving experience of the saints that they will cary with them into heaven?

In vs 23 is "continuing in unbelief" a sign or reason for them "being cut off" if so - then what were they doing BEFORE they were "cut off for unbelief"? What was their start? believing? OR were they initially brought in "as unbelievers"??

Is "graft them in again" a reference to a saving relationship with Christ being restored - or some more frivolous idea?

As we explore the instructive answers to these questions we will see a very bright light shining in Romans 11 on the subject of salvation gained and lost.

They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position. In Christ – the vine (John 15) the Jews fell and this is a warning to “us”? Only if OSAS is not true.

They become a warning to US as WE are in THEIR former position.

God desires to RE-establish them WITH US in that FORMER position IN the body of Christ. (Every branch In Me that does not bear fruit is cast into the fire – John 15). Yet here we see that God is able to “graft them in again” – so they can come back IF They do not Continue in unbelief.

And yet all this does not REJECT the plan of salvation as it continually unfolds in the NT - in fact it explicitly relies upon it. Including the future events of the coming
Messiah as described in Isaiah 53. But they ALL benefit from the God who "gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does NOT exist" Rom 4:17 so that God
called Abraham the Father of many nations - while as yet he had no children.

The Cross of Christ - benefits of forgiveness already applied PRE cross.

They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position.

Yet God shows His CONTINUED willingness, purpose, intent and interest in "Grafting them in again". He never presents the fall of Israel as "God's fickle choice for the CHOSEN" -- rather it is "Their UNBELIEF" – it is the rebellion of the CHOSEN.

Note that “you” is to the INDIVIDUAL reading the letter and – it is on an INDIVIDUAL basis that they stand IN Christ. Trying to “ignore this inconvenient detail” in an effort to save OSAS is not “exegesis” it is EISEGESIS. And this comes as a surprise to many.

 

In Romans 11 "He is able to GRAFT THEM IN again" if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief.

your idea of "having faith but still not saved" is not in the Romans 11 account "at all".

In Romans 11 He then points to the saints IN Christ - In the vine and instructs us to persevere in that faith relationship WITH Christ saying that we should "FEAR for IF he did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you".

Obviously this is devastating to OSAS.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Quote:
In John 15 Christ does not declare to His followers "ALL Jews are IN the vine by definition so don't fall out". It is clear that it is only the saved that are IN in John 15.

#1 I did not write John 15 - God did.

#2. The Bible never says that "evangelism" is the fruit of John 15 or of Gal 5 "The fruit of the Spirit".

#3. You are right about the text saying GOD is the one that removes the branches that are IN Christ but do not GROW and produce fruit. HE says they are cast away and burned.

That is not a reference to purgatory and then "going to heaven anyway".

In Christ,

Bob