HUH? Paul has a NEW prespective??

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by MRCoon, May 7, 2006.

  1. MRCoon

    MRCoon
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    Hey, I guess the Marines have kept me in a foxhole for far too long. So I was surprised when I read of this theological viewpoint.

    New Perspective of Paul

    Anyone have any thoughts on it...something a little deeper than 'one-liners' ;)

    Thanks
     
  2. Ransom

    Ransom
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    Just to be clear (since your subject line suggests a little confusion): it's not the new perspective of Paul, but the new perspective on Paul - that is, a relatively new idea (around since the 1970s but only really hitting the mainstream recently) that Paul's teaching on justification has been greatly misunderstood, especially since the Reformation and its emphasis on forensic justification.
     
  3. MRCoon

    MRCoon
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    Ok thanks for clarifying the difference of on & of but in what way is this a dramatic change in theology. Is it saying that Paul's teaching of justification (especially in Romans) to both the Jews & the Gentiles vary based on what the Reformist believe or what Judaism teaches? I'm a confused one who thought I understood justification and the book of Romans ;) Now Paul was just misunderstood? I'm often misunderstood or am a misunderstood person...not sure which [​IMG] ...but this seems to border on heresy vice theology.
     
  4. Gold Dragon

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    The page you link to is an excellent resource on understanding the NPP which I believe does challenge the understanding of Paul's concept of justification and its relation to works traditionally held by Protestants .

    N. T. Wright and theology

    The above link was a discussion on this forum that I found valuable in my evaluation of the NPP which I consider to raise some very valid questions and criticisms about the reformational concept of justification and whether it had been taken out of the context that Paul had originally intended.
     
  5. doulous

    doulous
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    The N.P. is Romanism repackaged.
     
  6. doulous

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    And the Federal Vision view is the pastoral side of the N.P. Both errode sola fide.
     
  7. doulous

    doulous
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    "This doctrine [justification by faith] is the head and the cornerstone. It alone begets, nourishes, builds, preserves, and defends the church of God; and without it the church of God cannot exist for one hour…. For no one who does not hold this article – or, to use Paul's expression, this 'sound doctrine' (Titus 2:1) – is able to teach aright in the church or successfully to resist any adversary . . . this is the heel of the Seed that opposes the old serpent and crushes its head. That is why Satan, in turn, cannot but persecute it." - Martin Luther

    I am on my way to church right now. I will be happy to expand (exegetically) on my disdain of the heretical doctrine of the N.P. when I get back.
     
  8. doulous

    doulous
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    One last thing. If you are a proponent of the N.P. or the F.V. and you are looking for a fight...consider the gauntlet thrown down. I will not allow this true damnable heresy to go unchallenged. I have alreay seen one dear "brother" in my church exit our fellowship and now is on the doorstep of leaving the faith because of it. On this issue I side with Luther and the Reformers. The gloves are off.
     
  9. Marcia

    Marcia
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    I just attended a workshop on this topic last week. It's called Covanental (sp?) Nomism. Apparently, this new perspective, as I understand it from the workshop, is that Paul taught justification by faith but sanctifcation by works. N T Wright built his ideas on others that came earlier who had "new" ideas about 1st century Judaism. I'ts kind of complicated but I brought the outline home to help me remember.

    BTW, the workshop I attended was against this New Perspective, not supporting it. The person giving the workshop is very concerned about it.
     
  10. doulous

    doulous
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    Marcia, as well he should be. This is not a minor theological debate. If we are not justified by faith then the Reformation got it wrong. Who steps in and cleans up the mess if that is the case? Romanism.
     
  11. MRCoon

    MRCoon
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    I am not challenging anyone or siding with NP or FV...never really heard of either of them. So any 'arguments' or 'points' you have I would appreciate just for my personal knowledge and maybe there are others on this board that are as 'theologically naive' as I am...or not [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  12. doulous

    doulous
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    My friend, I am not challenging you directly. I have been first hand witness to what this damaging heresy can do. My intention was to put on notice those who defend the NP.

    To explain the NP in one post is difficult. Those who hold to the NP are not in agreement in all areas. Suffice to say the are in agreement in one specific area. They all agree that we are not justified by faith (Sola Fide). Since the Reformation, Protestants have held that believers receive the imputed righteousness of Christ at salvation. The NP changes that and basically says that we are made righteous but we do not receive the righteousness of Christ. Most people would say, "Well what does it matter?" It matters a great deal. If we are not made righteous in Christ, how are we made righteous?

    For starters, take a look at Ephesians 1. Notice how many times we read the words "in Him" or "in Christ". What is Paul telling the reader? He is telling them that their identity is hidden in Christ and that apart from Christ they have no identity. The proponents of the NP would not deny that Jesus Christ is essential to right standing with God. As I wrote before, they would say that Christ's death made it possible for us to become righteous, but not in Christ. This creates a serious continuity problem with scripture. It is almost a deistic view of Christ. Christ made it possible for us to be declared righteous (but not it in Him), therefore what relevance does He have for us after salvation? If we are now righteous, what need there be of Christ?

    There is far more to it than that. Just a little taste of the problem.
     
  13. doulous

    doulous
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    For an indepth discussion of justification by faith, please click on this link:

    White Horse Inn

    Click on the broadcast for May 7th.
     
  14. doulous

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    Sorry MR. Doesn't look like this thread is attracting too much attention.
     
  15. J.D.

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    Having not read or ever been exposed to NP other than what I've read on this thread, am I right to say it looks to me like the NP is not only romanish but also campbellite in nature- saved by faith but faith must be completed by works? That's what they do with baptism.
     
  16. genesis12

    genesis12
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    Suffice it to say that NP is bunk. Stick to what scripture clearly teaches.
     
  17. reformedbeliever

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    I for one am certainly thankful that I'm in Christ. If i'm not completely justified by His work on the cross, and I need to depend on my works, then I'll never be saved. When people like Salamander come along and say things about the people you love, that old nature rears its ugly head.
     
  18. ituttut

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    Semper Fi, and thanks for your service and sacrifice. It is easier for we Marines to believe Christ Jesus from heaven, being always faithful. He gave to Paul His "dispensational" gospel for we today - Galatians 1:11-12; Ephesians 3. We are of "faith", being always in this state.

    The scholarly "website" you point to should give pause, for we find Paul, a learned man even at the feet of Gamaliel, says "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect", I Corinthians 1:17. I have never seen such "wisdom of words" used since my Business Law days, used to confuse issues in order to set a precedent for others to follow. We are to follow Paul's gospel (which is of Christ in Heaven) and not the "tradition of man". It changes with the wind.

    Please don't get me wrong, but I found years ago of studying for the sake of studying what I thought was New, or for more understanding, in most cases was only taking me from His Word. The answer's are there to be found, as we "study His Word". But I did find men that were "direct, and to the point", enabling the hearer to choose whether the speaker (or writer) was of the gospel of John the Baptist, or of the gospel of Paul. I make distinction of the "kingdom Church", and the "Body Church"

    I believe we should go to Paul to understand what Paul is telling us, and not in the philosophy of man. We find in the Epistles of Paul New truths, and thoughts, which of course were given to Him by Christ Jesus in heaven. One thing that should stand out to all Christians is salvation has always been of "faith", by the Grace of God, and in times past mans work was required to go along with that faith. This all changed however in Acts 9, at Damascus Road. The gospel of the Cross brought to mankind salvation through faith.

    Christ gave to Paul His "dispensational" gospel of salvation "through" faith. Both of these words are unique to Paul's gospel, just as are "rapture", Body of Christ, One spiritual baptism, and others. This "dispensational" gospel of "through" faith for the Gentile cannot be found until after Damascus Road. We see in Hebrews 11 that all from Adam, until salvation into the Body of Christ comes to the Gentile, all were saved by faith. Paul helps us out here to confirm other scripture to this effect, as shown in Romans 3:30, "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith."

    I believe The "Perspective Of Paul" on Justification is not found on that "website", but in Acts 13:38-39. "Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39. And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses." Powerful and to the point for the believer.

    These are my thoughts, not too deep but correctly divided for understanding the gospel of Christ from heaven - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation" by the Grace of God that comes to us through our Lord Jesus Christ, and we will be baptized by the Holy Spirit.

    Christian faith, ituttut
     
  19. genesis12

    genesis12
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    Amen. These boards are full of what has been written about God's Word. Far better to go to the source.
     
  20. npetreley

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    Paulie's got a brand new bag (funky guitar riff).
     

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