Hyper-Preterism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin Marprelate, Apr 26, 2011.

  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    I have been surprised to see that Hyper-Preterists are allowed to post on this board. I have arrived only recently and claim absolutely no authority here, but I will say that if I were a Moderator I would ban discussion of Hyper-Preterism in the same way and for the same reason that 'Millennial Exclusion' has been banned.

    I am a convinced Amillennialist, but I regard any eschatalogical view as orthodox so long as it teaches a coming Christ.

    However, any teaching that denies the literal and bodily return of Christ is outside of orthodox Chistianity. The early creeds and the Protestant confessions are as one in proclaiming Christ's Second Coming. The Doctrine of Christ is that He is crucified, risen, ascended, interceding, reigning and returning. Now read 2John 9-11. It may be that some brethren whom are less mature in the Faith will be deceived by this false teaching of Hyper-Preterism and be led into serious and damaging error.

    I and others have already refuted H-P on the board by pointing to Acts 1:9-11. Here is a link to a further refutation using 1Corinthians 15.
    http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/barcelloshyper.html

    Steve
     
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Steve,

    You have noticed that they bend over backwards for what is considered the hallmark of Baptist beliefs .....ie Individual Soul Liberty. As long as your a professing baptist & NOT some apostate Catholic, Mormon etc., you always stand a chance to express your beliefs

    Cheers & Carry on:thumbsup:
     
  3. asterisktom

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    Typical that your number one defense against my supposed heresy is to appeal to creeds and confessions. This is the same tack taken by the Roman Catholics when confronted by Martin Luther's "hyper" views on righteousness. They pointed out to him that the creeds and church know nothing about this novel "justification by faith". Simple Martin just came up with it by reading his Bible and taking it seriously.

    I suggest you do the same.
     
    #3 asterisktom, Apr 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 26, 2011
  4. Martin Marprelate

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    Er....doesn't Creed mean faith or belief?

    Here's the Apostles' Creed.

    I believe in God the Father Almighty,
    Maker of heaven and earth:
    And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
    Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
    Born of the Virgin Mary,
    Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    Was crucified, dead, and buried:
    He descended into hell;
    The third day he rose again from the dead;
    He ascended into heaven,
    And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
    From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
    I believe in the Holy Ghost;
    The holy Catholick [ie. universal, not the church of Rome] Church;
    The Communion of Saints;
    The Forgiveness of sins;
    The Resurrection of the body,
    And the Life everlasting.
    Amen.

    'I believe.' Faith alone. Luther believed every word of it.


    Steve
     
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    You spelled Catholic wrong.....was that intentional?:laugh:
     
  6. JesusFan

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    I agree here with this point.
    the literal/physical Second Coming Of Jesus IS a cardinal truth of not the Baptist , but the Christian Faith...
    IF full preterism DOES deny this truth, that would be a heresay....
     
  7. asterisktom

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    I do not deny the second coming of Christ. I just assert that it already happened. I do deny the "literal/physical" aspect. Were those "comings of God in the Old Testament (like in Isaiah 64, for one) physical? No. So why should the coming of the Son not be also not-physical? And why should this be made into a Shibboleth, when the Bible does not do so?

    BTW, it is spelled "heresy". Unless perhaps it is "hearsay" that you are thinking of, which is hearing something and then saying what you heard without checking the facts or, in this case, God's Word.
     
  8. asterisktom

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    This misses my point. Read what I wrote again.
     
  9. Grasshopper

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    Every view is heretical to someone.

    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's Corner/Doctrines/amillennialism.htm
     
  10. Martin Marprelate

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    No need. You are wrong, as on so many things. Luther was not confronted by the Creeds. As I say, he believed them all. He was confronted with the Church Fathers and was able to show that they, in many cases, supported Justification by Faith Alone.

    But I posted the Apostles' Creed. It dates back to very early times. As I say, Luther believed it; do you?

    Steve
     
  11. Amy.G

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    The scriptures certainly say that His return will be physical.

    Acts 1:11 Who also said, You men of Galilee, why stand you gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, who is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven.


    They "saw" Him ascend and all eyes will see Him come again. And the cloud in which He ascended and will come again is not cumulus clouds or the like, it is the shekinah glory of God. The same cloud that led the Hebrews through the desert.



    This has not happened yet.
     
  12. asterisktom

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    No, I don't believe the part you underlined. Neither do I believe that Christ went to Hell. Disagreeing with the Apostle's Creed would cause me concern if:
    1. The Apostles - the real Apostles - had anything to do with it and,
    2. The creeds were inspired. They are not.

    Once again, Luther's view of justification by faith (maybe if I underline it you will not overlook this) is not found in a single one of your creeds.

    1. Are the creeds essential statements of the Christian faith?
    2. Is justification by faith an essential doctrine? Yes.
    3. Is the lack of this essential doctrine in the creeds a concern for you? It was for me. A real eye-opener.

    I see that Martin Marprelate gave this challenge a bye. Let me open this up for anyone. Please tell me what I am missing in those last three points.
     
    #12 asterisktom, Apr 26, 2011
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  13. JesusFan

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    WHY would the "secret" Return though be ANY different than the "invisible" return JW profess?
    And IF Jesus returned, why are we still in a World still wrecked by the Fall, and under control of the Wicked One, Satan?
    Wouldn't jesus had put down that world system and established the Kingdom of God and we would be under a "perfect" Earth now?

    BTW, it is spelled "heresy". Unless perhaps it is "hearsay" that you are thinking of, which is hearing something and then saying what you heard without checking the facts or, in this case, God's Word.[/QUOTE]

    Thanks!
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

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    No doubt that is true. However, I have not used the H word on this thread, nor shall I. God will decide what is heretical, not me.

    Let me state my position. I've had some good discussions with Rippon about Bible texts. One of us is wrong and the other right, but we are both within the bounds of orthodoxy. Likewise I've crossed swords with Skandelon and Van on the subject of Arminianism. I think they're wrong, but I've no doubt that they're my dear Christian brothers. I may yet have a discussion with Premillennialists or Postmillennialists. I think both views are mistaken, but so long as they both posit an impending, physical return of Christ (as they do), it will be nothing more than iron sharpening iron.

    However, to deny that Christ is returning is to deny one of the cornerstones of the Christian Faith. It is on a par with denying the Resurrection or the Deity of our Lord and so it has been viewed down the ages. Whether God views it as heresy, I can not say. I do believe however that it should not be tolerated on a Christian forum.

    Steve
     
  15. Grasshopper

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    Fair enough. Just for the record I would describe myself as having one foot in Full Preterism and one foot out. Kinda hedging my bets.:laugh:

    The strength of FP is it's consistency and it's honoring of the time statements. What I found amazing is how many past Theologians actually held to an Ad70 parousia. They saw what full preterist saw, the difference is they claim another future parousia of Christ. So the question becomes, does the Bible teach multiple comings of Christ or just one.
     
  16. asterisktom

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    Thanks![/QUOTE]

    Whether or not the Preterist or JW views on Christ's return are similar (They are not.) is a moot point. Even a stopped watch is wrong two times a day. The question IMO should be "Does the Bible give us any precedence for an invisible coming?"

    And the answer is "Yes". Several times in the OT we have God "coming" invisibly. This is the background the 1st-century Jews were well-versed in. By contrast, the modern Christian's relative ignorance of the Old Testament seriously lames their interpretational abilities for the New.

    Your second question can be answered, partly, by the Old Testament. Studying out the nature of God's Kingdom - and BTW there is only one Kingdom of God, and will only ever be one, just as there is now only one people of God.

    Getting back to the Kingdom: Studies need to be made in rich passages like Isaiah 11:

    6 “ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
    The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
    The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
    And a little child shall lead them.
    7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
    Their young ones shall lie down together;
    And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
    8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
    And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
    9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
    For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD
    As the waters cover the sea."

    This addresses your concern about sin being so rampant today. Well, the "wolf" and the "lamb" in this passage show that this is how it is to be in God's Kingdom. It is through hardships and challenges that God grows His saints. Yet the saints have the assurance that in the Kingdom, "My holy mountain" not a hair of our head will perish. Of course, you have to understand the Bible's rich use of metaphors - and get past our modern antipathy toward metaphors - to appreciate this truth.

    BTW, I am glad that you saw that I wasn't being picky when I corrected your spelling of "heresy".

    If you are interested you can look into these studies I have started in Isaiah. The page is an annotated page of my dozen or so articles I have so far, from Isaiah 40 through 60:
    http://asterisktom.xanga.com/730209743/index-on-isaiah-articles-with-comments/

    Read especially the three articles on Isaiah 60, which go into greater detail about the nature of the Kingdom - according to God's Word, not man's bestsellers.
     
    #16 asterisktom, Apr 26, 2011
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  17. kyredneck

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    R.C. Sproul concerning the [non-FP] 1887 book, Parousia:
    "I can never read the New Testament again the same way I read it before reading The Parousia. I hope better scholars than I will continue to analyze and evaluate the content of J. Stuart Russell's important work."

    I believe the idea of ONLY TWO comings of the Lord come from this passage:

    so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation. Heb 9:28
    [For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. Heb 10:37]

    The 'salvation' referred to here is the deliverance from persecution these Jewish Christians would experience at the coming of the Lord in judgment on their Jewish persecutors 66-70AD.

    This is referring to the same 'coming' (after the transfiguration):

    ...And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26:63-64

    The high priest here is Caiaphas, whose father-in-law and joint high priest was Annas. Josephus records that Annas was killed (by the Idumeans) during the siege of Jerusalem 70 AD. I've no doubt that Annas and many others there seen the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven' in judgment on the disobedient nation.

    Applying 'the preterist modifier' to one's NT interpretation is, in actuality, fully adhering to a cardinal rule of scripture interpretation:

    “The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.” (C. Hodge)
     
    #17 kyredneck, Apr 26, 2011
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  18. preachinjesus

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    The accusation of hyper-preterism is hyper-inflated.

    Though I disagree with the preterist position of some around here, they don't take their views to the extreme.
     
  19. kyredneck

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    There's been a tendency to toss that word 'hyper' around a lot on the BB.
     
  20. revmwc

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    This says Christ will reign on earth for 1000 years and that men will reign on thrones with Him.

    This has not happened.

    Revelation 20:
    1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

    2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

    3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

    12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Then comes this,
    Revelation 21:
    1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

    2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

    4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

    6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

    7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

    8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

    10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

    11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

    12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

    13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

    14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    15And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

    16And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

    17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

    18And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

    19And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

    20The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

    21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

    22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

    23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

    24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

    25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

    26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

    27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

    Seems as if we still have a day and a night. We still have a sun and moon.

    chapter 20 the Lord will reign on the Earth physically, the Great White Throne Judgement takes place and the earth renovated by fire as Peter tells us and then the New Heaven and Earth come into being. None of this have happened Christ has not come to reign on earth yet and Chapter 20 makes it very clear He will for 1000 years, 2 Peter 3:2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

    3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

    4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

    5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

    6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

    7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

    12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

    15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

    16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

    18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
     

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