Featured I am CONFUSED about Lordship theology

The text says He SAW there faith. "Belief" is not observable. Only action is...

It does NOT say "He observed the result of their faith." It says He "SAW" (eido..."observed") their actual faith.

First, you are making a distinction between pistis and peitho that does not exist. In two different lexicons, pistis is also said to include trust.

Second, peitho in the dative can also mean believe. So to be "believing" (this is a participle form, in this instance), is to be "obeying."

I disagree. Nuance of word meaning is not exegesis. But yes, lets digress.

But the word for love is not actually used for obedience or "faithfulness." Peitho, and pistis, both are. Jesus could well have said, "If you love me, be faithful to me..."

 

It is a motivational statement for his disciples.

Let's take a parallel passage where the same things were said. Look at Matthew:
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
--He is definitely speaking to his disciples here, just before he sends them out.
Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
--The context is still the same. The same disciples. They are his sheep.
Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
--They were to speak by the power of the Holy Spirit, only the words of a saved individual could do this.

Matthew 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
--More assurance is given to them.
Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
--This is the same verse given in Mark 8:38--spoken to his disciples. The context here is obvious.

Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
--This is a condition of discipleship, not salvation.

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
--A condition of discipleship, not salvation. He is still speaking only to his disciples.

Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
--These are the same words found in Mark. He is speaking only to his disciples. It is discipleship, not salvation.

Matthew 11:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.
--The context is clear. He was sending his disciples out and giving them specific instructions. These commands were given to his disciples, not to the crowds.

It was a hyperbole. Not that they would lose their salvation; not that they would gain the world. There was no person there (including the unsaved) that would ever gain the world. And the disciples would not lose their souls. Their aim was to please Christ, not the world.

Not so, his address was to the disciples.

The entire sermon on the mount, three chapters in Matthew (5-7) was addressed only to his disciples. But great crowds came to hear him. This is a similar situation. He allowed the crowds to hear the teaching given to his disciples.

That is a ridiculous assumption. Just because he is addressing his disciples does not automatically mean it is about salvation. Look again in Matthew.

I didn't write the Bible. But you are re-writing it.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

To be faithful is a work. It comes only after salvation. Faith or trust, confidence in the word of another is what one must do before he is saved, as evidenced in the above Scriptures. Faithfulness to Christ comes after justification.
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.

They lack faith because they lack confidence in the promises of the word of God.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom.10:17).

That is a works salvation. Deeds, in keeping with their salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith. It is not by deeds or works.

Where did I say that?

I do know the meaning of the verses.

 

You said:

"do you see Jesus ever making "new believers" or does he make disciples off the gate??? "

In Matthew 4:19 Jesus said:
Matthew 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

He said that to Peter and Andrew. The only thing that they realized at that time was that Christ was the Messiah, and even then they were not fully convinced. Peter's confession came much later on. But they followed Jesus, nevertheless. Jesus took these two, gradually added others, and began to teach them. Little by little he molded them into men who eventually would become the 12 apostles. They had much to learn before that would ever take place. They were not automatically "disciples" per se, right out of the gate.
Look what happened to Thomas. Very early on he was a "disciple." But he was not convinced that Christ was Lord until after the resurrection when he could thrust his hand in the side of Christ and see the marks on his hands and feet. Only then was he convinced who Christ really was. The growth was slow.
Every believer's growth is slow. Lordship Salvation denies the entire process of sanctification.

 

True repentance/faith is tied into the surrender to the Lordship of Christ.

 

Yet the ironical thing about this FAL, is that most people who preach this have never practiced it themselves. They are hypocrites.

 

I started a new thread for you Greek folks,

 

Sorry, I don't buy this. Faithfulness is continued, but belief unto salvation is a thing of the instant. You repent and believe and are saved. Faithfulness however is a function of the Christian life. You cannot be faithful for only an instant; it's contrary to the whole meaning of the word.

You said in Post #53, "I am saying dedication to Jesus is exactly what "faith" in Jesus means. The dedication or "faith" is bestowed upon the person by God. It is monergistic IMO. Therefore, forsaking all to follow Jesus is the equivalent to faith in Jesus." How is that different from saying that faith (belief) and obedience have the same meaning?

You're still not proving LS. I have agreed that faith changes the way we live, as many others who oppose LS also teach. And I do disagree with your statement that "faith is acting out." No, as James teaches if you have faith you will act, but that is not the same as saying faith is ergo, "acting out." You then make faith a work, and I know you do not want to do that.

The argument that Jesus as Lord means Jesus is God in the Gospel message is very strong. See "Jesus as Lord in Acts and in the Gospel Message," by Darrell Bock (BibSac 143, 570, Apr. 1986). I would certainly agree that the deity of Christ is central to the Gospel message. However, the Gospel message in Acts is never given by the disciples with the caveat that you must accept Him as Lord as well as believe in Him to be saved (which is not to say that repentance is not involved).

"Faith" and "faithfulness" are two definitions of pistis. Simply because a word is polysemous doesn't mean that one meaning is "implicit" in the other. You simply cannot prover that faithfulness is implicit in faith.

And of course you don't want to commit the root fallacy here with your etymological origin of pistis, do you? So what is the relevance of the etymology with this discussion? I see no connection.

 

I can't see faith since I can't see the heart. But surely you are not suggesting that Christ cannot see the faith in a person's heart are you? Surely you don't mean that Christ is ignorant of a person's faith unless He sees their action! Au contraire, He is omniscient, and can see the faith in a person's heart before they ever act.

I don't make the distinction without reference to the scholars. If you want to convince me, name a single scholarly source who says what you do, that there is no distinction between pistis and peitho. (First off, they are a noun and a verb, so I assume you mean pisteuo and peitho. :smilewinkgrin: )

So exegesis does not include studying nuance? :type:

You miss my point. "We love Him because He first loved us." So when we are saved we become able to love Christ. And then, according to John 14:15 we are to obey His commands--future tense, meaning after the love and therefore after the salvation.

 

No, it is not. He was already talking to the disciples. he could have continued to talk to the disciples. He specifically stops, and calls the "crowd" over to him and His disciples so they could hear the gospel.

Obvious that you are really reaching. Are you saying that there are saved people who will be DENIED by Jesus at the throne of God? How on earth are they saved then?!

You are REALLY reaching!

Not according to Jesus!

Mar 10:17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

Mar 10:21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
Mar 10:22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
Mar 10:23 And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!"


The context is clear. The man wanted eternal life. He asked how to get it. Jesus told him he lacked one thing: he had to be willing to give up everything.

The text is very clear he then went away WITHOUT eternal life! :tonofbricks:

No, he is not. He WAS talking to His disciples. Then the text plainly says (at least in the parallel account), that he called the crowd over to Him AND His disciples! He was preaching the Gospel.

What a lie from Satan. "Life?" Hello?

Not so. He called the crowd to Him and His disciples. The commands were given to the crowds, who Jesus specifically called over.

Explain it away however you wish. The fact is, that Jesus is teaching that if one does not pick up their cross and follow Him, then they will "forfeit their soul." The statement is clear.

Maybe according to you. Not according to the text.

Jesus went to teach the Sermon on the Mount, specifically because of the multitudes (Matthew 5:1). Jesus was teaching them how to be His apostles and spread His message. Thus they were observing His proclamations, and getting explanations of the things Jesus was proclaiming to the crowds. This is clear throughout the NT (see for example the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13).

You are imagining a division that is not there. "Disciple" just means a learner. One can hardly be called a believer of Jesus if they are not "learning" from him. Also, according to you and your ilk, we apparently don't even have to tell others about Jesus. The great commission says nothing about making believers....

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations...

He was speaking to the crowd.

No, I just accept what it says.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Rom 16:26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith--

Woa! Out of CONTEXT. So I guess we don't even have to have faith now, right? The text says nothing about belief or faith...

1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain

...

1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

Acts 26;20 but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.

I thought it was just belief? Are you now adding a work? Namely, confessing?

Thought it was just "belief?" Now we have to actually call on Him, too? Isn't that works?

Now we have to hear AND believe? How many things you adding? I thought it was just "belief"?

Define "belief" in first century terms, please. Jesus said that those who acted contrary to him, did not, in fact, believe. He told those who were scared on the boat, that they did not have faith... He said He "saw" the faith of those who brought the man sick of the palsy...

Faith is NOT just mental assent. It is wholehearted devotion and trust. Which is another way of saying "Pick up your cross..."

And then he goes on to detail a bunch of things that show that a person has not believed. Hatred for ones brother. Continually living in sin. Etc.

All of the quotes you give above use the word "pistis" (translated by you, "belief". According to the Lexicon, "pistis" means:

"belief with the predominate idea of trust whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same, fidelity, faithfulness, the character of one who can be relied on"

Faith, not "belief." Faith means more than belief. For instance, when a man cheats on his wife, he is said to have "broken the faith."

Faith.

Are you saying Paul taught a works salvation? Any gospel message that does not include a faith of repentance of sin, and dedication to Christ, ALWAYS RESULTING IN "deeds" is not the same message Paul preached.

 

I have never met a single LS guy who was not fully committed to Christ.

I have, however, met many a cheap grace proponent who were "Sunday Christians"...probably because there theology encouraged such.

Seeing discipleship as some second step after salvation is nothing but bondage back to the law. "Yeah, Jesus accepts you. But if you want to be a "Super Christian" you have to do X, Y, and Z"...

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.

 

To the above bolded, can it have something to do with the upfront commitment in exchange for salvation? Not to say it isn't genuine for all, but could some be "working" to achieve that status?

 

Sorry, I can't participate. I have a seminar Fri-Sat, have to prepare for that now, then travel 5 hours tomorrow. Can't start something new on the BB.:type:

 

Just because a person preaches the truth it does not make them saved. Likewise just because a person who preaches the truth and is not part of it does not negate that truth. Keep in mind that MANY will say Lord, Lord and hear I never knew you.
If a person is not doing what 1John says then according to the bible they are lost no matter what they preach or believe.
1John 2:3,4
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

Take a look in the future if you can and thanks for the reply.

 

I have no doubt that there are many, many Christians who appear to be Christians, on both sides of this issue, that if we could see how they lived their private life, the vanity of their faith would soon become apparent.

 

Think that you and I would be rejecting the oft stated line that "Unless jesus is Lord of/over ALL, then he is Lord on NONE!"

ALL christians at the moment of being reborn have Him placed over them as their Lord at that time forward, but that some do NOT allow Him to be that, as still have those areas that he needs to get his "hand on!"

And we will NEVER be fully submitted to him as our Lord every waking moment, not unless we hold to attaining sinless perfection, but can get more into his image by allowing God to have more and more of us on a daily basis!

 

This is another problem I have with something that is not LS. Belief unto salvation is not an instanteous thing. It is an ever-going thing. One's repentance and faith continues and grows in the life of the believer. Otherwise, the gospel is not something you live out and grow into but simply something you do and believe in once and that's it. I would argue that you cannot legitimately believe and repent in an instant either. It is something that continues. That's probably why you have so many perfect tenses used to describe the experience of salvific faith. So that completely fails. What you have is a very monergistic system (being a Calvie that makes me happy ).

It may not be much different, but I still stand by what I said. To follow Jesus as Jesus called for people to do takes dedication. So to see continuity between Jesus' gospel and Paul's gospel, you have to see this monergistically or make a tacit distinction between salvation and discipleship.

I don't feel like it needs to be proven since that was the gospel call of Jesus. What is repentance if it is not related to his lordship? As far as faith being a work, evangelicals only shy away from that b/c of a over-reaction to the reformation and what christendom was before it. The over-reaction is that we want a faith without works and I am saying Jesus called for a faith THAT works.

I'll try to read the article later. But even if it is a statement to his deity, it has to be more than that. The very title "lord" ascribed to God was more than deity. Otherwise, you are saying that "lord" is a synonym with the semantic meaning of deity. But God was called "lord" b/c he is deity and b/c he is in control as the sovereign lord.

Isn't this typical western thinking (juxtaposition and dualities)? Why can it not be a both/and situation (considering the eastern thinking of the biblical writers)? That seems to make sense in the "faith of Jesus" debate. Good words are usually loaded with meaning. Good literature (OT & NT are both great literature) uses loaded words. I think it is quite observable that "faithfulness" is very much implied in the pist- root considering the very nature of what Jesus calls his followers to do.

I am trying to be careful and not saying that. I only mention it because it helps to demonstrate that the pist- root certainly has the "faithfulness" meaning bound up within it.

 

Are you going to ignore the context of Matthew where time and time again he emphasizes the fact that he is speaking to his disciples and only to his disciples just before he sends them out? Many of the exact same verses are repeated in that same passage. The fact that the crowd was "invited" as well is irrelevant.

No. I will ask you the same question Jesus asks his disciples.
If Jesus were to come right now, would you be ashamed or ready for his coming? Are there things that you think that you ought to get done first before he comes, or if he comes wish you had gotten done like witnessed to some loved ones? Or are you perfectly right with God so you will not be ashamed if he should come right now?

Not at all. Will you be ashamed or not? That is not reaching.

If you believe that:
That: Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother...
--This is a condition of discipleship, not salvation.

That this is a condition of salvation then you believe in a works based salvation which is a heretical position. For salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. Your position is salvation is by works, as you just stated.

 

No, it is not out of context. Peter preached a salvation message. 3,000 were saved that day. They called upon the name of the Lord. They called on his name in faith.

This is your response to Acts 10:43.
Does it mean you don't believe Acts 10:43. I don't really understand your posting of these verses. There is no contradiction here.

And how does this deny what happened to the Philippian jailer. You quote a verse. So what? The Philippian jailer still got saved by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Where did I say that? Are you putting words in my mouth, misrepresenting what I said. I usually call that a lie.
Romans 10:13 teaches salvation is by faith. "Calling on the name of the Lord" is an action of faith.

Have you never called on his name?

Though I never said belief, and have constantly said that salvation is by faith, "belief" does mean "have faith." Don't put words in my mouth.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

It is confidence in the word of another. In each case they had confidence in the word and promise of Christ, whether it was for salvation, healing, physical salvation (in the boat), they all had confidence in the word of Jesus.

Romans 4:20-21 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
--This is one of the best definitions of faith--being fully persuaded that what God has promised he will perform. Abraham was a man of faith. The definition hasn't changed from then until now.

I never said it was simple mental assent.
But it is not "Picking up one's cross." If it is, then you believe in a gospel of works. That is heresy. Picking up one's cross is a daily action of crucifying the flesh; saying no everyday to the things of the world. The cross is what Jesus died on, an instrument of execution or death. It is putting to death the sinful things of this world. It is done on a daily basis. It is not a one-time action at the time of salvation. If it were every Christian would be sinless.

But that is not what 1John 5:13 teaches is it? So why throw in the red herring? Deal with the truth of 1John 5:13.

I know what pistis means. It simply means faith or trust. You cannot add the rest of that definition on there. Faithfulness is the result of trust, not part of trust. If it is part of trust or faith, then salvation is made of works. Your salvation is no different, therefore than any other religion of the world.

Here you are using the word faith as a noun instead of a verb. You are using it the same way as Jude uses it when he says that we must "contend for the faith." Here it is used as a body of doctrine that we collectively believe.
As a verb it means "have faith" or believe. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Have faith in him. It is a verb.

Paul taught: "For by grace are ye saved through faith... and that not of works.
You teach that salvation is through works, using verses that are directly aimed at discipleship and making them requirements for salvation. That is works.

 

isn't the big confusion on that some LSD see those of us not advocating it as saying we hold to believers not having jesus as their lord, or have no use for godly living, as "Just need faith alone?"