"I am neither a calvinist nor arminian"

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Apr 12, 2005.

  1. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    "I am neither a calvinist nor arminian"

    This is a rather humorous statement I have read non-Calvinists say. But they prove their own ignorance by making such a statement. Calvinism and Arminianism are not terms denoting who you follow, but how you are classified. How absurd would you think it if a fellow came up to you and said:

    "I am neither a Christian nor a non-Christian!"

    You would either laugh at him and think him an ignorant fool, or pray for his lost condition. Either way you would acknowledge his words as foolishness.

    There is a barren wasteland between the classifications of Calvinist and Arminian theology. You are either entirely one, or the other to a certain degree. You cannot be 'neither.'

    The classifation 'Calvinism' (like the classification 'Christianity') is formed by making absolute statements. To call yourself a true Christian you must have a personal relationship with Christ and put your faith in him alone for your salvation. Anything to a lesser degree than this causes you to fall into the other group: damned. On a similar note, the classification of 'Calvinist' is one who holds that believers were chosen apart from any good works or faith of their own before the foundation of the world out of the good pleasure of God's will, redeemed by the blood of the lamb on Calvary who triumphantly resounded 'It is finished,' and effectually called and drawn to the love of God and holiness of the Spirit through acceptance and belief. Anything less than this falls into the other classification 'Arminian.' Surely no Calvinist follows or esteems John Calvin- just as no Arminian follows or esteems Jacob Arminius. These are classifications we may use and are just as effective (though not as common) as 'reformed' and 'unreformed' or 'free grace' versus 'free will.'

    You cannot be 'neither' in this topic. You are either a proponent of 5 point Calvinism, or your lean towards the other end of the spectrum. I may reject my title of 'father' should I have a child, but my duties, actions, and life show differently. You may reject the title 'Arminian' till your dying breath, but you accept a certain level of human ability, an election based on works or faith, an atonement that is admirably wide, but effectually weak, and saints that are not kept by Christ till the last.

    Keep denying it. You make yourself very obvious when you do.
     
  2. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Posting Rule #5. No trolling. Trolling consists of provoking large volumes of responses by posting absurdities, deliberately offensive insults, etc.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    This is about as absurd as they come.

    </font>
    • Calvinism and Arminianism are not terms denoting who you follow, but how you are classified.
      And who decided this? God? Can you show me John Calvin's name in the Bible?</font>
    • I have read non-Calvinists say. But they prove their own ignorance by making such a statement.
      Be careful who you call a fool or ignorant!</font>
    • There is a barren wasteland between the classifications of Calvinist and Arminian theology. You are either entirely one, or the other to a certain degree. You cannot be 'neither.'
      But you can agree with some of BOTH teachings! Unfortunately, that's not good enough for Calvinists!</font>
    • You are either a proponent of 5 point Calvinism, or your lean towards the other end of the spectrum.
      So the 'Calvinists' who are not 5 pointers are what? </font>
    • Keep denying it. You make yourself very obvious when you do.
      Obvious WHAT?
      If you're questioning the salvation of board members based on their following the teachings of John Calvin, I'll be more than happy to take this to the moderator forum. </font>
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Whetstone is indeed correct here, and this does not appear to be addressed by rule 5.

    The bottom line, as I have pointed out before, is that you either believe God elects people to salvation without respect for anything other than his own purposes (Calvinist) or you don't (arminian). I am a biblicist. I don't follow the creeds of men. I have no use for the logical constructs that contradict Scripture. I need only Christ and only Scripture, and for that reason, I am a Calvinist.
     
  4. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Again... obviously what?
     
  5. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    Who's trolling? This is on topic with 'calvinism/Arminianism debate' and it isn't deliberately offensive. it is my opinion. If this is not allowed i will take it to a board where it is.


    Calvinism and Arminianism are not terms denoting who you follow, but how you are classified.
    And who decided this? God? Can you show me John Calvin's name in the Bible?
    Show me the word 'Christian' in the Bible and I'll show you the word 'Calvinist.'


    I have read non-Calvinists say. But they prove their own ignorance by making such a statement.
    Be careful who you call a fool or ignorant!
    I believe I have been. If a person claims they are neither- they are ignorant to just what exactly both sides mean. Calvinism is based on absolutes. Anything less is Arminianism since Arminianisms is founded on objecting to Calvinism.


    There is a barren wasteland between the classifications of Calvinist and Arminian theology. You are either entirely one, or the other to a certain degree. You cannot be 'neither.'
    But you can agree with some of BOTH teachings! Unfortunately, that's not good enough for Calvinists!
    Taking some of one side and some of the other isn't 'neither' it's 'some of both.' But in truth, if you are not a proponent of 5 point calvinism, you are not a Calvinist. If you object to any of the points of Calvinism you MAY be called an Arminian since Arminianism denotes objecting to Calvinism in whole or part.


    You are either a proponent of 5 point Calvinism, or your lean towards the other end of the spectrum.
    So the 'Calvinists' who are not 5 pointers are what?
    not true Calvinists.


    Keep denying it. You make yourself very obvious when you do.
    Obvious WHAT?
    obvious that you don't realize that your objections to calvinism are the same ones raised by the followers of Jacob Arminius hundreds of years ago.


    If you're questioning the salvation of board members based on their following the teachings of John Calvin, I'll be more than happy to take this to the moderator forum.

    I don't recall even implying such a thing. My OP wasn't about theology but classification. Your huffy attitude proves to me that this has gotten at least a little under your skin. Sometimes it's good to read something that puts you outside of your comfort zone. stretches you. Please do take it to the moderator forum if you feel I have been offensive. I seek only to give the truth in love- nothing more.
     
  6. MargoWriter

    MargoWriter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,384
    Likes Received:
    0
    :eek:
    oh my goodness
     
  7. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    So if I believe everything Arminian except that one can not lose their salvation, what am I classified? An Arminialvist? My Savior classifies me as His child! Who cares what other people think.
     
  8. natters

    natters
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not so sure Calvinism/Arminianism is "either/or". I know I disagree with certain aspects of Calvinism (I'm definitely not a 5-pointer), but how many "points" do you need before you're a "Calvinist"? How many can you question before you're not? And is "Arminian" the only alternative? What if someone doesn't agree with (or even know) everything Arminius taught?

    I do not believe it is either/or. At the very least, there is a spectrum (as the original poster even admitted!), and on that spectrum might not even be the only place to be.
     
  9. natters

    natters
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    0
    Follow up: Calvin and Arminius lived in the 1500s. Were people classified as "Calvinists" or "Arminians" before then? I sincerely doubt it. [​IMG] ;)
     
  10. icthus

    icthus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    What a load of hogwash, Larry. You guys who claim to be just "Christians" are really first "Calvinists". You keep on arguing for the unbiblical nonsense of Limited Atonement, and then say that you don't follow "creeds of men". What then do you think the "5 points of calvinism" are then, if not unbiblical teachings by men who were more interested in their on glory, than that of God. For these "Reformers", by their warped understanding of the love of Jesus Christ for the lost human race, gave us so much nonsense that has caused millions to follow their errors, rather than the Word of God.
     
  11. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Messages:
    4,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am neither a calvinist nor arminian! [​IMG]
     
  12. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    i agree. who cares? but for sake of this discussion it wouldn't be true for you to say you are 'neither.' You certainly lean more towards arminianism and you have been honest in this admission. i respect that.
     
  13. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    no. nor were the disciples called 'Christians' in their time. The name was not coined until later.
     
  14. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    ...proving my thesis very well thank you.
     
  15. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Talk about absurdities! "how you are classified"? According to who's standard?

    God cares nothing about your absurd classifications, He's got his own, Believer and Unbeliever. That is what he judges man's eternal life by!

    Keep your petty, meaningless, absurd, classifications to yourself. What a waste they are!
     
  16. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Messages:
    4,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    ...proving my thesis very well thank you. </font>[/QUOTE]which has absolutely proved nothing... [​IMG]

    I believe what I believe, calvinists have some valid points as do the arminianists, but I believe they both are also wrong on some points. So am I both or neither? Your thesis is based on your pre-determined beliefs, so it is more of an accusation than a thesis, which in my opinion proves absolutely nothing!

    I find it laughable that you equate saying "I am neither a calvinist nor arminian" with saying "I am neither a Christian nor a non-Christian!" Are you hinting that those who are arminians are non-Christians?
     
  17. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    This debate is about as dumb as KJVO vs other versions. None of these 'persons or things' were around when scripture was penned.

    Romans 14:1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: "As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God." 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.
     
  18. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    Folks we have a genuine prophet here to tell us what God does and doesn't care about! Tell me- why would God care about a sparrow falling, but not care about the beliefs of one of His children?

    If they are so petty and meaningless, why are you getting so indignant?
     
  19. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    So God couldn't make it clear enough so He had to use John Calvin since scripture and the saints of old couldn't explain it? Sounds like John Calvin is somebody's 'prophet'.

    Romans 2:11 There is no favoritism with God.

    Guess that means it doesn't matter WHAT you call us.
     
  20. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    Arminian misconception #2,352: "John Calvin invented the doctrines of grace."

    A systematizing of the doctrines of grace isn't 'new revelation.' It's an easy to remember way of looking at old doctrine. No different than a chatechism. No Calvinist claims John Calvin was a prophet or creator of new revelation.
     

Share This Page

Loading...