I don't understand

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by gristmill, Sep 15, 2006.

  1. gristmill

    gristmill
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2006
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    now I dont understand this - my pastor says that Jesus has not returned because he is patient and wants everyone to get saved before he comes and stops time. What I don't understand is if that's true why would Jesus ever come? Shouldn't he just let time go on and on so people can keep getting saved? and also if he's so patient how come he sends them to hell anyway? Shouldn't he keep giving them chances to be saved, even in hell?

    I can't ask my pastor - he gets mad when people ask questions.
     
  2. SBCPreacher

    SBCPreacher
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    2,764
    Likes Received:
    0
    The verse is 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." (NKJV)

    I believe this way. Since Jesus knows everything, He already knows who the last person who will believe is. He is waiting on that person to be saved, and then He'll come again and take His own to be with Him. I know everyone doesn't necessarily believe this way - but, this is what I believe.

    You asked, "If he's so patient how come he sends them to hell anyway?" Everyone choses for themselves their eternity. If they reject Christ, they are choosing hell. And after they die, it is too late. The Bible doesn't mention anything about any second chances in hell.
     
    #2 SBCPreacher, Sep 15, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2006
  3. Andy T.

    Andy T.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    3,147
    Likes Received:
    0
    Makes you wonder, doesn't it? If God didn't want anyone in hell, he could have just not created anything. Again, this gets into the differing "wills" of God that is being discussed in the Rick Warren thread.
     
  4. gristmill

    gristmill
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2006
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    but don't you think taht someone in burning in hell would get saved if they had a chance?
     
  5. J.D.

    J.D.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    8
    God must be willing for millions of people to perish because how can God not accomplish that which He has determined to do? The promise of salvation is not to the lost, but to his chosen ones, and not even one of those he has chosen will perish in hell, but all shall come to repentance. When that last elect person shall repent, then the end shall come, and those that God has passed over shall receive their justice, and the elect will receive undeserved mercy.
     
  6. av1611jim

    av1611jim
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yep. That is the Calvinistic view of God but it is one sided.

    There is another side which says "Whosoever will..."

    I am a "whosoever" person.

    Whosoever means ALL mankind or it means nothing at all.
     
  7. J.D.

    J.D.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    8
    "Whosoever believeth" is NOT all mankind, for not all mankind believeth. "Whosoever will" is not all mankind, because most of mankind will not.
    "Whosoever" may be anyone, but not necessarily everyone.
     
  8. Blammo

    Blammo
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,277
    Likes Received:
    0
    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    If, as the calvinist believes, a man must be born again to believe, and grace is irresistable, why is "longsuffering" even in the verse?
     
  9. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good question, and I can't wait to hear some other answers to this one.

    Ed
     
  10. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    Outta curiosity, in your picture, are you the kicker :thumbsup: or the one a-fixin' to get kicked?? :tonofbricks: If the latter, might I suggest :1_grouphug: ? :laugh:

    Ed
     
  11. Blammo

    Blammo
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,277
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not in the picture, but, I'm sure I'm about to get kicked.... AGAIN!!!
     
  12. J.D.

    J.D.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    8
    I don't get it. Why would "longsuffering" NOT be in the verse? God "suffers" (waites) long while His flock is being gathered in. This is a blessing that accrues to the benefit of the elect. We are to account that God's longsuffering is salvation, see v15. :confused:
     
  13. gristmill

    gristmill
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2006
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    J.D. so you say God is willing to have justice on the damned and mercy on the saved. that makes alot more sence than what my pastor said he said mercy on everyone. thanx
     
  14. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0

    Gills makes it clear.....

    Ver. 9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, &c.] The Syriac version reads in the plural, "his promises", any of his promises; though the words seem rather to regard the particular promise of Christ's coming, either to take vengeance on the Jewish nation, of which coming there was a promise made, and is often referred to by Christ, and his apostles; see #Mr 9:1 Joh 21:22 #Heb 10:37; and it now being upwards of thirty years since it was given out, some men began to charge God with slackness and dilatoriness; whereas the true reason of the delay of it was, that there might be time for the gathering in of his elect among them by his angels, or apostles and ministers, sent into the several parts of Judea, that so none of them might perish, but be brought to faith and repentance; and thus as the time of Christ's coming was prolonged more than was thought it would, so when the days of afflictions were come, they were shortened also for these elect's sake: or this promise regards the second coming of Christ, to judge the quick and dead at the last day, of which the former was a prelude, presage, and pledge; that Christ would come again, and appear a second time in person, was promised by himself, and often spoken of by his apostles; and many of the primitive Christians thought it would be very soon, and which might be occasioned by the hints that were given of his coming in the other sense. Now this being deferred longer than was expected, the scoffers or mockers take upon them to charge the Lord with slackness in the fulfilment of his promise:

    as some men count slackness; as if he had either changed his purpose, or had prolonged it beyond the appointed time, or was unmindful of his promise, and would never fulfil it; whereas he is in one mind, and none can turn him, nor will he delay the fulfilment of his promise beyond the set time; he has fixed a day for his coming, in which he will judge the world in righteousness, and he will keep it: he is not dilatory,

    but is longsuffering to us-ward: not to all the individuals of human nature, for the persons intended by us are manifestly distinguished from "some men" in the text, and from scoffers, mocking at the promise of Christ's coming, in the context, #2Pe 3:3,4;
    and are expressly called beloved, #2Pe 3:1,8,14,17;

    and God's longsuffering towards them is their salvation, #2Pe 3:15,

    nor is it true of all men, that God is not willing that any of them should perish, and that everyone of them should come to repentance, since many of them do perish in their sins, and do not come to repentance, which would not be the case, if his determining will was otherwise; besides, a society or company of men are designed, to which the apostle himself belonged, and of which he was a part; and who are described, in his epistles, as the elect of God, called out of darkness, into marvellous light, and having obtained like precious faith with the apostles; and must be understood either of God's elect among the Jews, for Peter was a Jew, and they were Jews he wrote to; and then the sense is, that the delay of Christ's coming is not owing to any slackness in him, but to his longsuffering to his elect among the Jews, being unwilling that any of that number among them should perish, but that all of them repent of their sins, and believe in him; and therefore he waits till their conversion is over, when a nation shall be born at once, and they that have pierced him look on him and mourn, and so all Israel shall be saved; or rather of the elect in general, whether among Jews or Gentiles, upon whom the Lord waits to be gracious, and whose longsuffering issues in their conversion and salvation. And upon account of these the Lord stays his coming till their number is complete in the effectual calling; and for their sakes he is longsuffering to others, and bears with a wicked world, with the idolatry, superstition, heresy, profaneness, and impiety, with which it abounds; but when the last man that belongs to that number is called, he will quickly descend in flames of fire, and burn the world, and the wicked in it, and take his chosen ones to himself. The Alexandrian copy reads, "for you", or your sakes; and so the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions. A passage somewhat like to this is met with in a book of the Jews {f}, esteemed by them very ancient.

    And it is an observation of theirs {g}, that when God is said to be "longsuffering", it is not written Pa Kra, but Mypa Kra, intimating, that he is longsuffering both to the righteous and the wicked; but then he bears with the latter, for the sake of the former: compare with this passage #Re 6:9-11;

    not willing that any should perish; not any of the us, whom he has loved with an everlasting love, whom he has chosen in his Son, and given to him, and for whom he has died, and who are brought to believe in him. These, though they were lost in Adam, did not perish; and though in their own apprehensions, when awakened and convinced, are ready to perish; and though their peace, joy, and comfort, may perish for a while, and they may fear a final and total perishing; yet they shall never perish as others do, or be punished with everlasting destruction: and that this is the will of God, appears by his choice of them to salvation; by the provisions of grace for them in an everlasting covenant; by the security of their persons in the hands of Christ; by sending his Son to obtain salvation for them, and his Spirit to apply it to them; and by his keeping them by his power, through faith, unto salvation.

    But that all should come to repentance; not legal, but evangelical, without which all must perish; and which all God's elect stand in need of, as well as others, being equally sinners; and which they cannot come to of themselves, and therefore he not only calls them to it, in his word, and by his spirit and grace, but bestows it upon them; he has exalted Christ at his own right hand, to give it to them; and repentance is a grant from him, a free gift of his grace; and the Spirit is sent down into their hearts to work it in them, to take away the stony heart, and give an heart of flesh; without which, whatever time and space may be given, or means afforded, even the most awful judgments, the greatest mercies, and the most powerful ministry, will be of no avail.
     
  15. Blammo

    Blammo
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,277
    Likes Received:
    0
    J.D.,

    I missed you. Welcome back.

    I will elaborate: God waits for who? In the calvinistic view, personal salvation is not contingent on a man's response to the gospel, a man's response to the gospel is not in his power, but God's. So, unless I am still missing something, you have God waiting on God?
     
  16. gristmill

    gristmill
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2006
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    man that's some good stuff jarthur001. where did you get that? Who or what is gills?
     
  17. J.D.

    J.D.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    8
    Thanks. Good to be back (I think). Anyway, God is waiting on His own time table and conditions for the second coming that he has established. All orthodox evangelical theological systems teach this, not just calvinism. To say that God is waiting on God is not precise, but is a symantical play. There's been some threads on God's interaction in and out of time, and they usually go over my head so I'm not going to try to get into that.

    Only open theists say that God has not established, yea, pre-established a time table for the end.

    The elect are numbered and when the last one is saved, the gate will be closed and the end will come.
     
  18. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    You have heard of Charles Spurgeon, i'm sure. Gills was "the man" so to speak before Spurgeon. A great writer and knew Hebrew and Greek better then any one of his day.

    He pastored for over 50 years and wrote many books.
     
  19. Blammo

    Blammo
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,277
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good answer, I like it.
     
  20. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Theres a problem with a pastor who gets mad when people ask questions.
     

Share This Page

Loading...