I got myself in trouble

Ah yes, The Galactic Teddybear.

 

That is an excellent sermon, John. I've heard it many times.

 

It was a real eye-opener when I heard it as a college student--one of the few sermons I've remembered the main points on for decades. I'd never thought of those things before!

 

You're doing the right things, Amy. This is obviously a subject the folks there need to learn from the Word of God.

 

Amy,

I would say you are wrong, but not for the reasons you listed. If you look in verse 2:1, Paul lets it be known that Chapter 1 is about everyone, not just some special, extra sinful people. Paul is describing the fall of mankind into depravity, and the reason that the gospel is necessary. Notice that in verse 2:1, he says that EVERYONE practices these same things...

 

Excellent! Then your conversation with your pastor ought to go swimmingly, as our British friends would say. :godisgood:

 

So everybody worships statues and has homosexual tendencies and all the rest? Sorry, your position doesn't sound reasonable when the whole context of Ch. 1 is read. And in 2:1 he specifically talks about those who judge. So I don't understand where you get that 2:1 says ch. 1 is about everyone.

 

Amy...

Nothing at all wrong with what you said. Its the truth of the scripture.

And I have been there. When the eyeballs pop you know you have ruffled some feathers!

Just curious...was the teacher one of the ones with the popping eyeballs?

 

Amy, again, these passages refer to all mankind. And no, this is not a once for all giving up of a person. The exact same word is used in 1 Corinthians 5. Notice what it says:

1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.


Also, notice the scope of this sin in Romans 1:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.


Notice that "all"? Every time you and I have sinned, we have engaged in "suppressing the truth". Also notice, their is no break in this text!

Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

God has shown it to who? Why, everyone who has engaged in ungodliness and unrighteousness...(that includes you and me)

Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

God's attributes are perceived by who? All (remember verse 18...) Who is without excuse? All.

Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Who knew God? All. Who did not honor him as God? All. Who became futile in their thinking? All. Whose foolish hearts were darkened? All.

Remember at this point we are talking "Pre Christ". Paul is setting the stage for the Gospel.

Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,

Gave up who to their lusts? All. This does not mean God "gave up on them", but that He allowed them to indulge in their lusts without His restraint.

Notice, their is NO question to his meaning here. Follow Paul's thought to verse 2:1...

Rom 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things.


In other words, this is not some special class of "extra sinful" people who God gives up on. It is referring to the entire human race.

 

You are not reading the text. It says God gives everyone up to impurity. Then it lists types of impurity.

It does not say that all within this group worship statues, either. It says they exchanged God for icons (eikon). Idols, but not necessarily physical representations (the word is used in ephemeral fashion as well). Everyone serves someone; if it is not the one true God, it is something else.

 

No, that is NOT what it says. It says ALL. ALL unrighteousness of men. Every bit. That includes mine and yours.

These people are no worse than you or I.

 

The word used is "whosoever"...the same word used of salvation in John 3:16. Are you saying you have never judged anyone? Moreover, that NO Christian has ever judged anyone?

There is nothing in that text that would point to Jews.

 

Not because of us. Because Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, and God no longer sees us as what we are in our natural state. However, their was a time before that was the case.

Which was us, before we were saved.

So did we.

Tell me, if God gives up on the "really bad" sinners, why didn't He give up on Paul? According to Paul, he was the "Chief" of sinners.

This whole interpretation of these passages simply do not make sense. Paul is setting the stage for the gospel, not trying to denote some kind of spiritual "untouchable" caste...

 

I've read the text, I've translated the text into Japanese from Greek, I've taught the text in Japanese. It does not say "God gives everyone up to impurity." Show me the "everyone" in chapter one. It's not there except for 1:16. Show me the "all" in ch. 1 with the meaning of "all sinners" or "all of you." It's just not there.

Let me get this straight. You really don't believe 23-25 is talking about actual, physical idols? From reading your posts on the BB I really think you are a better expositor than this. Yes eikon doesn't have to mean a physical representation, but it certainly does in this case.

And you didn't mention homosexuality. By your interpretation everyone would have to have such tendencies. However, they are not natural, but against nature.

 

BTW Amy,

Please accept my apology if I came off too strong. That was not my intent. I certainly think your class members are too sensitive, and their reaction was unwarranted.