I Peter 1:5

Salamander · Mar 23, 2007

EdSutton said:

Amen, Amy.G!

Ed
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So then by my having faith I am righteous, though I have never accepted Christ?

If believing is accounted as righteousness/ faith, even the devils are righteous. They believe and tremble at the word, but they are still devils.

Anyone else see the danger of what yall are saying?

Salamander · Mar 23, 2007

2 Timothy2:1-4 said:

We must be careful to take the passage in its context. Siping v. 5 out of the chapter and defining salvation is a mistake. look at v. 3. "hath begotten us again" Which speaks to "now", "unto a living hope" , "reserved in heaven" "kept by the power of God" the word kept in the greek gives the word pitcure of making a depsit in the bank before something happens to it which supports the "living hope" that we have. Peter is taling about a hope that is secure and incorruptable.

The salvation we now have is in reality only a promise of the future which will be revealed at God's appointed time. There are not two salvations such as an immediate salvation and a future salvation. There is one death and one salvation for Christ died but once which was sufficient for eternity.
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Very good, and our salvation isn't yet complete for I still have a robe of flesh that must drop to the ground before I receive that "robe" of righteousness. But our faith isn't what accounts to our righteousness in and by itsself, it must incorporate the faith of God imparted to us to be a completed action.

.

Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

If faith isn't a gift, then where did our faith originate?

Brother Bob · Mar 23, 2007

Of course you think that, but again you fail miserably in Bible doctrine.
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From a person who says he "knows" he is saved but he don't believe that he "knows" he is saved, an attack like this just don't mean much. :applause:

Let me see if I can figure out what Salamander is saying. If Christ has faith that He is Christ then it saves Salamander without Salamander having any faith? Is that what he is saying. He already says that he don't believe that he knows that he is saved, so maybe that is what he is saying, I truthfully am not able to figure out what he is saying, but sounds like Christ must have his faith for him to be saved.

webdog · Mar 23, 2007

So then by my having faith I am righteous, though I have never accepted Christ?
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Huh?
We can only accept Christ through faith. We can't accept Him by works, so what do you mean?

If believing is accounted as righteousness/ faith, even the devils are righteous.
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Me thinks you don't know the difference. I believe that an airplane can fly...I've seen them, but if I never get on a plane due to fear of it not flying, I have no faith in the plane, even though I believe they do fly.

They believe and tremble at the word, but they are still devils.
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Did Christ die for mankind, or demons?

Anyone else see the danger of what yall are saying?
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What danger?

EdSutton · Mar 23, 2007

2 Timothy2:1-4 said:

We must be careful to take the passage in its context. Siping v. 5 out of the chapter and defining salvation is a mistake. look at v. 3. "hath begotten us again" Which speaks to "now", "unto a living hope" , "reserved in heaven" "kept by the power of God" the word kept in the greek (sic) gives the word pitcure of making a depsit (sic) in the bank before something happens to it which supports the "living hope" that we have. Peter is taling (sic) about a hope that is secure and incorruptable.

The salvation we now have is in reality only a promise of the future which will be revealed at God's appointed time. There are not two salvations such as an immediate salvation and a future salvation. There is one death and one salvation for Christ died but once which was sufficient for eternity.
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Maybe someone is "siping" (sic) ? but it is not me, although I could use a right now, being a bit thirsty.

It is fine to make the comment about context, but it appears that someone else is away at context, as I read it, anyway.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen[a] you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us[b] they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.

Living Before God Our Father

13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; (I Pet. 1:3-13, - NKJV, my emphases)
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We are indeed already begotten (aorist tense) to "a living hope" that is "kept by the power of God" in the bank, as it were. And I am agreeing fully, with that, for that is what Scripture is saying.

However, there is also a looking into the future, and the two uses, here, of the phrase "the revelation of Jesus Christ", in the passage, I have quoted, serve to confirm this as well. The phrase "ready to be revealed in the last time" can only modify "salvation". So there is at least some sense, in which this is future.

I may have phrased this in a somewhat confusing way, before, but did not think I did. But I shall try again. Perhaps this will make it a bit clearer.

There is but one "eternal salvation", certainly. And there is only one 'once for all time' sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, on Mt. Moriah, as well. But there is more than one "tense" of this salvation. There is the past tense, in that " we have been saved" (Eph. 2:5,8), and that from the penalty of sin; the present tense in that "we are being saved" (I Cor. 1:18), and that from the power of sin; and the future tense, in that "we shall be saved" (Rom. 5:10), and that from the presence of sin. And the quoted text partially bears this out, at least as to the past tense and future tenses in view, here. One eternal salvation - yet in three 'tenses'.

Ed

EdSutton · Mar 23, 2007

Salamander said:

Nope, straight out of The Book.
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Which one? The Institutes of the Christian Religion, or more likely, The Canons of Dort? If it is 'straight out of the Bible' I'm sure you can find at least some Scriptures that make this statement, or at least, to back it up.

It is His Faith that will guarentee/ secure us who come to Him, not ours.
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I would not necessarily disagree with this, for, as I said, either the construction of "faith in Christ", or "faith of Christ" is permissible, here.

True, it is by our faith we come to Christ, but only due to His faith imparted to us.
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I'll agree up to the "but only" bit; I wanna' see a verse or two that says the last part of your sentence. By "imparted faith", I am assuming you mean that God gives 'some' the faith to "be able to believe", while not giving this to others. OK, I guess, but do you have any Scripture that says this? And please don't cite Eph. 2:8, for the Greek grammar simply will not support that, there.

Calvin wasn't wrong about everything, neither are calvinists (sic).
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("Please capitalize 'Calvinist'!" Signed, Language Cop)

I have never said either Calvin nor (any) Calvinists were "wrong about everything", by any stretch. But, FTR, I am neither a "flower child", in that I don't sprout TULIPs, nor do I believe any of the "five Points" of the Remonstrants (Arminians), either.

Don't confuse faith with simple belief.
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I believe I am not the one who may be confused, here. One has to "add baggage" to the words 'faith' and 'believe' to make this distinction, as one is merely the verb form (believe) and the other the noun form (faith) of the same Greek root word. The question here is the "object" of faith, not the supposed "content" of faith. The Biblical point is "believe/faith in/on Jesus Christ or God" as various Scriptures declare (Jo. 3:16, 36; 6:47; Ac. 16:31, Ro. 4:3-5, 22-24; Gal. 2:16; et.al.).

Ed

EdSutton · Mar 23, 2007

Salamander said:

So then by my having faith I am righteous, though I have never accepted Christ?

If believing is accounted as righteousness/ faith, even the devils are righteous. They believe and tremble at the word, but they are still devils.

Anyone else see the danger of what yall are saying?
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You might want to re-read Rom. 3:21 - 4:25, before asking these questions.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Boasting Excluded

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Romans 4

Abraham Justified by Faith

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[i] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[j] 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.David Celebrates the Same Truth

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.” [k]

Abraham Justified Before Circumcision

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

The Promise Granted Through Faith

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”[l]) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”[m] 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[n]
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification. (Ro. 3:21- 4:25, - NKJV, my emphases)
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I certainly do "see the danger of what ya'll are saying", here.

As to where I stand, as webdog asked, "What danger?"

Ed

Salamander · Mar 24, 2007

EdSutton said:

Which one? The Institutes of the Christian Religion, or more likely, The Canons of Dort?
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Neither

If it is 'straight out of the Bible' I'm sure you can find at least some Scriptures that make this statement, or at least, to back it up.
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Romans 12:3

¶For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

I would not necessarily disagree with this, for, as I said, either the construction of "faith in Christ", or "faith of Christ" is permissible, here.
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By whose "permission"?

I'll agree up to the "but only" bit; I wanna' see a verse or two that says the last part of your sentence. By "imparted faith", I am assuming you mean that God gives 'some' the faith to "be able to believe", while not giving this to others. OK, I guess, but do you have any Scripture that says this? And please don't cite Eph. 2:8, for the Greek grammar simply will not support that, there.

("Please capitalize 'Calvinist'!" Signed, Language Cop)
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Sorry, but I will not comply, for I do not recognize the doctrinal stance of calvin, nor calvinists in regards to "two-lipped" theologies.

I have never said either Calvin nor (any) Calvinists were "wrong about everything", by any stretch. But, FTR, I am neither a "flower child", in that I don't sprout TULIPs, nor do I believe any of the "five Points" of the Remonstrants (Arminians), either.
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Hmmm? Explain.

I believe I am not the one who may be confused, here. One has to "add baggage" to the words 'faith' and 'believe' to make this distinction, as one is merely the verb form (believe) and the other the noun form (faith) of the same Greek root word. The question here is the "object" of faith, not the supposed "content" of faith. The Biblical point is "believe/faith in/on Jesus Christ or God" as various Scriptures declare (Jo. 3:16, 36; 6:47; Ac. 16:31, Ro. 4:3-5, 22-24; Gal. 2:16; et.al.).

Ed
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I almost agree completely, though simple belief isn't salvation.

Though I have always believed in God since my awareness as a young child, of life in general, I had not always been a believer who has demonstrated faith unto salvation.

I firmly believe faith is the seed in which God planted through the hearing of preaching into the hearts of all men: whether audiby or through creation itsself.

It is then up to me alone to excercise that measure of faith to then receive the free gift of grace through faith to become a child of God. This is called regeneration from being once dead in tresspasses and sins but now quickened by the Spirit .
Rom 10:14¶How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? Rom 10:17
So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Isn't the Scripture very plain?

Faith only comes through hearing the Word of God and the Word of God came from God didn't it?

This may be too simple for some who may be educated higher than their intelligence. (pun intended)

Salamander · Mar 24, 2007

EdSutton said:

You might want to re-read Rom. 3:21 - 4:25, before asking these questions. I certainly do "see the danger of what ya'll are saying", here.

As to where I stand, as webdog asked, "What danger?"

Ed
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Seems yall are adding faith as if it is a work necessary for salvation.

Abraham wasn't saved until he received Christ, but it seems yall are saying he was.

I was asking "tongue-in-cheek".

Salamander · Mar 24, 2007

Brother Bob said:

From a person who says he "knows" he is saved but he don't believe that he "knows" he is saved, an attack like this just don't mean much. :applause:

Let me see if I can figure out what Salamander is saying. If Christ has faith that He is Christ then it saves Salamander without Salamander having any faith? Is that what he is saying. He already says that he don't believe that he knows that he is saved, so maybe that is what he is saying, I truthfully am not able to figure out what he is saying, but sounds like Christ must have his faith for him to be saved.
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Never quit beating a dead horse do you?

To know something is certainly to believe it for what knowledge is there that doesn't incorporate belief?

( Personal attack deleted ) it is really very simple.

Brother Bob · Mar 24, 2007

Never quit beating a dead horse do you?

To know something is certainly to believe it for what knowledge is there that doesn't incorporate belief?

[edit] it is really very simple.
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So, finally, you agree that you believe that you know you are saved, which in reality is the only way it can be.

All you had to do was say this from the start and that would of been the end of it.

Except the last line continuing the remarks.

Salamander · Mar 24, 2007

WARNING:
Post to the topic or don't post at all.
This entire post was a personal attack and therefore was deleted.

Brother Bob · Mar 24, 2007

[personal attacks and unedifying language deleted]
I will not be debating you anymore and could say more, but there is a time to just call it quits. Have a good life.

But, you did admit that you believe you know you are saved. I suspect that is what is bugging you.

(edit) Being that I don't want to start another response, I will add to this one.

I knew that you love to try and out do someone and that is why I pushed you until you had to admit that your knowledge was based upon what you "believe". So, we end with you having to admit that I was right all along, that "you believe that you know you are saved".
Salamander; you are easy. I boxed you in a corner all the way, all because of your attitude. If you had of been nice, it would of not been necessary.

Scriptures says their mouths must be stopped and sometimes it takes a while but finally they have to admit the truth as you did. I doubt if you learn anything from it though.

As far as my wife, I usually tell her most of what goes on here. My wife trusts me and I wonder why you would have to ask something like that unless yours don't trust you. Tell you the truth, [edit]
This way, I can still let you have the last word, unless you want to continue to hijack your own thread.

Salamander · Mar 24, 2007

You should learn what it means for one's belief to become knowledge.

[unedifying comments deleted]
I will have to admit, I love to bring out the darkside of people like yourself; it gives them a chance to see themselves inwardly so they might not have to answer for their attitudes at the Judgement Seat of Christ in rebuke and loss of reward. It's just the PREACHER in me!

In any case, you might want to remain civil in how you respond to people on the internet. It is your choice if you won't carry on a conversation with me, I find it would be your loss.

I do not appreciate your attempt to hi-jack this thread. Anymore from you on this subject and I will simply ask it to be closed and start another one. [edit]
Since you want the last word and wish to feel vindicated, here goes, "I suspect that is what is bugging you. "

mima · Mar 25, 2007

We are kept by the faith we have in the faith of Jesus Christ. And faith of Jesus Christ consist of what He,The Lord Jesus Christ, has shown back to his Father Almighty God.--- Our salvation does depend on someone's behavior, but that someone is not us either individually or collectively but that someone is the Lord Jesus Christ.

EdSutton · Mar 25, 2007

[quote-BrotherBob]

Salamander said:

Never quit beating a dead horse do you?

To know something is certainly to believe it for what knowledge is there that doesn't incorporate belief?

That may be too high on the shelf for you since you keep asking incoherent questions, but it is really very simple.
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So, finally, you agree that you believe that you know you are saved, which in reality is the only way it can be.

All you had to do was say this from the start and that would of been the end of it.

Except the last line continuing the remarks. [/quote]

<------ {snip} That's a veternarian fixing a broken horse with a special horse tool.
The horse is feeling much better now.
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:laugh:

Ed

Salamander · Mar 27, 2007

I see the both of you cannot deal with a subject that you have both persistently denied when the Scripture is given.

I never said I didn't believe what I know, the both of you insisted that I thought that way, contrary to anything else anyone could have observed.

Now if either or both of you can tell me if faith isn't imparted to us from the Lord, just where is it we get faith?raying:

I really don't expect a rational nor a reasonable answer.

Salamander · Mar 27, 2007

Brother Bob said:

Being that I don't want to start another response, I will add to this one.
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You have not added anything to something that was already there. And that was already nothing.

I knew that you love to try and out do someone and that is why I pushed you until you had to admit that your knowledge was based upon what you "believe". So, we end with you having to admit that I was right all along, that "you believe that you know you are saved".
Salamander; you are easy. I boxed you in a corner all the way, all because of your attitude. If you had of been nice, it would of not been necessary.
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I love the way you congratulate yourself so speedily, but you haven't done any such thing. I know my faith was imparted to me by the Word of God. The Word of God came from God through Divine inspiration. I have an INSPIRED Bible. This is fact, not something I just believe. I base my belief on fact, thus it is no longer simple belief, but KNOWLEDGE. I really don't expect you to understand this, but when light is given it is your duty to walk in it.

If you boxed me into some corner, why is the door of knowledge there wide open?

Why is it you cannot comprehend the difference between knowledge and belief? It must be a mental block.

Scriptures says their mouths must be stopped and sometimes it takes a while but finally they have to admit the truth as you did. I doubt if you learn anything from it though.
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All I have learned is that you do not know the difference between belief and knowledge according to fact.

As far as my wife, I usually tell her most of what goes on here. My wife trusts me and I wonder why you would have to ask something like that unless yours don't trust you. Tell you the truth, I think it takes a warped mind for someone to think something wrong about brothers and sisters thinking something is humorous.
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It wasn't the "humor", but the element of disgust that was incorporated into your "humor". [edit]

This way, I can still let you have the last word, unless you want to continue to hijack your own thread.
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It's not hijacking my own thread to openly rebuke the instigator of contention in a valid and valuable discussion.

I suppose this is just further effort of yours to dodge the question. You espouse error and I have reproven your error,
[demeaning langugage deleted]

Brother Bob · Mar 27, 2007

Medic, medic !!!!!

I been wondering why you use the avatar name of Salamander??

Salamander =

Not without spot or blemish is it. Beady eyes and crawls on its belly, it also has a forked tongue which it can't keep in its mouth hardly at all. I really didn't know what a salamander was, until I looked it up?

So now I know what a Salamander is.

This is a true statement of knowledge from the animal kingdom.

Amy.G · Mar 27, 2007

Bob, better call Mrs. Bro. Bob! You're gonna need that blackbelt!:laugh: :laugh:
That salamander might bite!

I Peter 1:5

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