I was born this way...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Nov 22, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just wanting to know from our more 'deterministic' brethren in the room. When a homosexual (or someone of some other sinful alternative "lifestyle") attempts to justify his choices by saying, "I was born this way," can you truthfully disagree with them?

    How so?
     
  2. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    We were all born sinners. Some of us with a propensity to become drunkards, others to have a bad temper, others to be homosexuals.

    I have never embraced this- God would never let somebody be born a homosexual- business.
     
  3. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    8,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wait wait wait ... !

    [​IMG]

    OK ... go!
     
  4. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Shouldn't this be in the Cal/Arm section? One would think a moderator should know this. :tongue3:
     
  5. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    No I can't disagree with them. As Luke said we're all born sinners. I don't see what it has to do with determinism.
     
  6. Benjamin

    Benjamin
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,878
    Likes Received:
    109
    Question begging. We were all born, created to be good, nothing else can come from God unless you place responsibility for evil on Him, BUT, and I understand that it may be difficult for you to continue with a thought for more than short one sentence lines, BUT this shows we born with a free will to "become" a sinner.

    Not saying you have a propensity "become" a "drunkard" or have a "bad temper" or God forbid! a "homosexual" (which for some reason you are about to separate out) :confused: - :eek: ...BUT exactly how do you "become" something/anything if God has foredetermined your nature (all things) before you were born?

    You just verified that "only" good (don't forget "all things", this is another one of those long thoughts that brings you back to your first statement/premise ;) ) can come from God in creation and goes to prove that man must have choice, free human volition.

    I hear you "saying" (or rather question begging, you need to look into this fallacy a little deeper , maybe a class on Basic Logic and Critical Thinking Skills would help :laugh:) that "we are all born sinners" on one hand and that "you don't embrace, at least as far as the homosexual aspect, that God lets one be a sinner" on the other hand? So God picks which sins are allowed? But He is not responsible for them "becoming" in any way? Interesting logic you have there Luke...
     
    #6 Benjamin, Nov 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2013
  7. Benjamin

    Benjamin
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,878
    Likes Received:
    109
    To "become" or not to "become" that is question, to Luke. (HE seems to be trying to have it both ways based on the "particular" sin)

    For you, how does this "becoming" NOT relate to determinism???
     
    #7 Benjamin, Nov 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2013
  8. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37

    Could it be seen like this?

    And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

    Could one be called for the purpose of being born again of God that which is the only one who is good?
     
  9. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I believe God has made all men upright, but all men when they mature and understand good from evil will certainly choose to sin and "become" filthy.

    Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

    Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    When scripture says that no man does good, it is not saying that everything a man does is evil. It is not evil or sin to tell the truth, or return a lost wallet.

    What scripture means is that no man does 100% good. That is the standard set by God, you must be absolutely without sin to be "good". That is why scripture says, For all have sinned and "come short" of the glory of God.

    If men are born sinners, then homosexuals or any other type of sinner has a perfect excuse for their sin.

    Do we fault someone for being born blind, or missing limbs? So why should we fault someone for being a homosexual or pedophile?

    This is the HUGE error Augustine introduced to Christianity.
     
  10. Benjamin

    Benjamin
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,878
    Likes Received:
    109
    Correct, we all "become" sinners. But not God.

    This relates directly back to responsibility for that sin, could it be seen that no sin, nothing but good can come from God?

    (Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

    I believe all were created for the purpose of being called to be born again. Some do not choose this as good from God, maybe they are too proud within their divinely designed miraculous nature of sense reason and intellect to "freely" believe through humbling themselves toward being a lessor being than God, like Adam and Eve.

    Some want to be their own judge of what is good (their own god), these are not willing of their own to bow their knees, but there is only One that is Good and He is our Lord. Love this truth, you believe in His goodness and pure love in creation and have no problem freely bending your knees, don't love the idea of having a Judge over you you are likely to make excuses about being free "enough" to bend your own knees.
     
  11. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,256
    Likes Received:
    186
    Skandelon,

    I am very disappointed in this thread. I am not certain it doesn't cross over the BB rules dealing with sexuality of a person.

    Not only is the OP truly inappropriate, but it seems your desire to show some superiority of reasoning has drawn you into a disregard of Scriptural truth.

    That can be expected from lesser folks who have more than once denied the Scriptures by embracing in part the Pelagian heresy.

    The truth, in which you know and with this thread you seem to seek to remove yourself, is that only those who embrace the heresy deny the child is born in sin.

    The wise person you are will close this thread.
     
  12. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    human sexuality threads have been closed, I've heard they are against BB rules yet they go on, and this isn't even in the correct thread title, should be c/a. And besides all that we have a higher authority in 2 Timothy 2:23; Titus 3:9; & the exercise of personal wisdom.
     
    #12 preacher4truth, Nov 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2013
  13. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh no, not the Pelagian boogieman!
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Benjamin

    Benjamin
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,878
    Likes Received:
    109
    Don't look now, but here come the thread crashers! Personal attacks, accusations of heresy, condescending remarks...goodbye topic.

    :tonofbricks:
     
  15. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    Would Eve and her husband have eaten of the fruit had not the serpent, whoever or whatever the serpent was had not been in the garden with them.

    The desire of the flesh could very well be free will. The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I know we have many who post who would not like to be just like God if they themselves did not choose to be so.

    For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Hebrews 8:10-12

    These people will be born of God and they will not have had one iota of a thing to do with that having brought forth, just like they they had nothing to their flesh birth.
     
  16. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    That charge is always a perennial favorite. Next comes semi.....

    But, if you know WM, who precisely determined both of these to be heresies?
     
  17. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    0
  18. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, Pelagius was known to be a very godly man, while Augustine was known to have lived a very depraved life as a young man. When Pelagius was allowed to defend himself he was found innocent of heresy. It was only later that Augustine was able to bribe officials to find Pelagius guilty of heresy when he was unable to defend himself.


    It is the false doctrines of Augustine men should fear.
     
  19. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    As an "aside", came across an interesting blog spot, though probably few will find it interesting or challenging.

    http://sententias.org/
     
  20. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    4,628
    Likes Received:
    11
    No, I really can't disagree with them. We all are born with a sin nature. They've just adopted a different sin than me.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...