If all men are drawn to God Then all men can be saved

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by ILUVLIGHT, Jun 27, 2004.

  1. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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    Hi Everyone;
    It is argued here that all men cannot come unto God. If this is true then the Bible is a lie.
    On the day that Christ ascended up to the Father was He or was He not lifted off the earth. If so then all men are drawn to God. This is not to say all will be saved. If all men are drawn and as in Jn 6:44 we can't come unto the Father unless we are drawn. Then it is only logical to say that it is possible that all men can be saved.

    Joh 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
    Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
    Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    If God chose all men and draws all men to come to him then all men are elected. But not all men are saved. WHY? because most reject Christ just as the Jews did

    God's word is full of Choice that God Him self with out loosing one bit of His Sovereignty gave to man. No one thus far has proven man cannot come to Christ. No one thus far has proven that only a few are elected.

    I don't make these statements out of Arrogance but out of love for my fellow Christians. Everyone desevers to see truth. It doesn't mean you're not saved. I believe most Calvinist are. It just means we can all be misguided.Please pray about it.
    May God Bless You all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    John 12:32 is speaking of all nationalities. The context makes that clear, when the Greeks are the ones who ask to see Jesus. John 6:44 is right ... you can't come unless you are drawn, and there were some standing there who weren't drawn.
     
  3. Me2

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    the purposes of God outlined in the bible is simple

    Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
    Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

    simple? gather all things "in christ"?.

    Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

    draw all men ?

    2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    all things become new ?

    Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    will draw all men unto christ. drawn by the father. none cast out.

    We know that God gives man revelation of his purposes towards his creations. and he tells us "after it has completed its course" from ending to beginning. and we know his purpose was before the foundation of the world.

    Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
    Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken [it], I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed [it], I will also do it.

    purpose spoken. purpose fulfilled? I will do it?
    draw all men.? will not cast out any?
    all raised up at the last day?
    I will do it?

    Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
    Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

    as a christian we walk by faith and not by sight.

    What God has purposed in himself. He says he will do. Now its the christians turn to make a faith discision to believe, or not believe, in the promise of the purposes which He has stated he will do.. will jesus draw all men? throughout all history?

    Me2
     
  4. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Pastor Larry;
    How would you know that unless your view of this is clouded by a preconceived notion. I agree that no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws Him but, all men are drawn when they Hear the gospel.

    I agree that all nationalities are drawn all nationalities of men and Christ said in context that if He be lifted up from the earth He would draw all men to Him. Are you saying that this isn't so?

    I disagree that there are some who aren't drawn. Would you show us who was not drawn. Those who rejected Him were drawn, If they weren't then Christ Lied.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  5. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Me2;
    There is a huge difference between being drawn and given.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  6. Me2

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    ILUVLIGHT,

    the reason one is drawn is because they are given the law by the father. the law demands the need of judgement after exposing existing sin.

    the father "gives" the transgressors SIN to the son to (atone) forgive. (yet does one actually believe Jesus died for all sin??)

    the drawing of the father is towards the act of atoning for sin. seen from the aspect legally, it is not a matter of love or hating the individual. it is a matter of atoning sin.

    Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

    as the religious man observes Jesus making an atonement for the sins of the world, yet afterwards hold the guiltless still guilty before God.

    some believing "for an eternity", no less.

    The atonement is given to prove God being infinitely merciful towards his creation.

    Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

    Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    all souls enter into death Iluvlight. all souls
    and in death. they are atoned for.

    Me2
     
  7. Pastor Larry

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    By reading the context and by understanding that Scripture does not contradict itself.

    No, to the contrary, I am saying it is so. In fact, your position cannot stand. John 6 teaches that all who are drawn come to him. We know that not all who hear the gospel come, so whatever this is saying, it is not saying all men without exception. That would lead to a glaring contradiction.

    John 6:64-65 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

    Some did not believe and Jesus knew who they were. He explained that by saying that the Father was not drawing them all, or in the words of this verse, "giving them." IN John 6, "giving" and "drawing" connote the same idea, as can be seen by comparison in the passage. Contrary to your statement, there is no difference between them. The passages shows that the idea is the same.

    I would say that if your interpretation is right, then Christ would be a liar. YOu say that "all men are drawn when the hear the gospel." Yet not all men have heard the gospel. There have been many who died never hearing the gospel. Therefore, by your definition, Christ did not draw all men. He is therefore a liar. I think that is the outcome of your position. Taking teh text in its context avoids that problem and gives a good understanding of the passage in light of Scripture's teaching.
     
  8. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Me2;
    Yes I do believe that Christ died for all sin.
    This verse alone proves that Christ died for the sins of the world;
    Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    He is not talking about the world of Calvinism, but everyone on the planet, past, present, and future. To say that the word "world" is only talking about certain people is not scriptural because we are all elected to become followers of Christ. If those who never hear the gospel do not come that isn't there fault, but ours it is we who are responsible for the spreading of the gospel.
    The only guiltless gave his life so that if we would only believe we would be saved. Or are you saying that there are others who are guiltless?
    Our atonement comes from Christ not our death.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  9. npetreley

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    ILUVLIGHT, what do you make of this passage, given your assumption?

    John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

    It doesn't say "All that the Father gives Me might come to Me if they decide to do so of their own free will." It says "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me." It does not say "Of all who are drawn, which means every man who ever lived, lives or will live, some will come to Me." It says "All that the Father gives Me will come to me." There are no exceptions in that phrase.

    ALL who the Father gives Jesus WILL COME to Jesus.

    ALL WHO COME will be saved (by no means cast out).

    So who are "All the Father gives Me"? As opposed to whom? And how does that fit your theory?
     
  10. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Pastor Larry;
    Thats really a nice way to tell me I don't understand scripture.
    I don't see any understanding from you at all just because you're a pastor doesn't mean you have absolute knowledge and understanding.
    What you have to say about giving and drawing meaning the same. I completely disagree with and so does every dictionary in the country that includeds every English proffesor I ever heard of. This is a fairly wild claim your making. I'd like to see you're proof of that. Actually there is none and your just pulling my leg,Right.LOL
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  11. Me2

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    Iluvlight,

    whoosh..right over the head... didnt catch this. the atonement is for "the sin of the world".

    meaning the federal headship of one, representing man, sacrificed himself, for the lives of another.

    every human being can be now be resurrected from death because of this one atonement. this one atonement can substitute every other human life ever born.

    1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

    the atonement for every sin is no longer an issue of who deserves or accepts this activity on their behalf.
    it is up tho the father to resurrect them from death to everlasting life "in Christ".

    it is now up to the father to pick and choose the timing of the enevitable occurrance.
    If one can see this event. they will witness the elect being resurrected in this age and will experience all other human beings resurrected in the next age.

    Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:


    Yet Religion still holds those forgiven by God..as still being guilty until proven innocent. they are living by sight instead of by faith.

    Me2
     
  12. npetreley

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    I don't mean to speak for Pastor Larry, but it seems to me he didn't mean that the words had the same definition. But the two statements in John amount to the same thing, and Jesus even refers back to His statement to reinforce it -- which should tell you the statements (not the words) mean the same thing:

    44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

    Note the "Therefore I have said to you...[NIV: This is why I told you...] " When did He tell them? He told them in verse 44. The two statements are conveying the same principle. Nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father wills it and enables that person to respond.

    The flip side of that same coin is "37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."

    So nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father makes it happen. Of all the Father draws and enables (gives Jesus) ALL OF THEM WILL come to Jesus. And of all who come to Jesus, Jesus will in no way cast them out.

    IMO, John 6 is one of the most comforting chapters of the Bible. Right there you not only have the promise that the Father has everything in control, but the promise of eternal security for the believer.
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    I was saying that the meaning of the text if found by understanding teh context. Yes, I think you missed the context, and therefore missed the meaning. I didn't intend to be rude about it. I don't have absolute knowledge and understanding, that's for sure.

    The point is not that the words mean the same, but rather than the theological concepts behind them mean the same.

    John 6:44 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
    John 6:64-65 ... no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

    The proof is found in the text itself, by comparing the parallel statements of Jesus that refer to the same thing. Both of these verses communicate the same truth. One uses the word "give" and one uses the word "draw." What other proof do we need?
     
  14. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Npetreley;
    That's true it doesn't, but then I don't base my theology on one verse.

    Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    This verse doesn't say anything about election but it exist. What What it does say is that He will draw all men to Him. What's your take on this verse. We can't throw it out. Is Christ going to draw all men to Him or not?.

    My point is just because you find what seems to be a contradiction doesn't make it one. We have to take the gospel as a whole. Not just focus on one verse.

    Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    Now I know someone is going to say this isn't true. That every man that has heard of the Father shall come unto Christ. We know that not all who hears of the Father are saved. Or do we? Calvinist after Calvinist has told me that Natural men don't hear the Word. This isn't true the Bible says;

    Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    If this is true then the Calvinist theory of the Natural man not being able to hear isn't so.

    How can man be without excuse, if he has no choice in his own Salvation. Because if they know, they can believe. They can seek God, and they can be Saved. If not they have an excuse and that is The heavenly Father wouldn't let me be saved. He wouldn't let me know of Him. He did not elect me! These would be valid excuses IMO.
    My God is a Just God and He cannot be a Just God if he punishes men for something they themselves could not help. Good Pleasure or no.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  15. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Pastor Larry;
    First let me say that I appreciate your input always. Even though we disagree I realize you're my brother in Christ. I try to keep an open mind but like you I am just as convinced of my theology as you are.

    In the sense that they are both referring to coming to Christ yes, but One is telling us that we can't unless drawn and the other talks about being given. I realize that you believe that you were regenerated in order to believe and in the way you see this as being related to that belief.

    Myself I do not agree we are regenerated first but we must believe first so when I read that the Father has given me to Christ I see it as meaning that I already believe and no longer need to be drawn. Thus the two verses have different meanings to me. My point being that we both have preconceived notions, or rather our doctrines have an effect on how we read the scriptures.
    To me being given is an after the belief issue has already come. Now that I believe The Father gives me to Christ.

    In many of your post you have stated that regeneration and believing is an event that happens all at once.
    Mine has it's similarities in that it happens all at once when we believe we are regenerated at that very moment.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike
     
  16. npetreley

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    That's an excellent point. You've raised a perfect example of the need for a system to harmonize scripture that has apparent contradictions. Let me add a couple more verses to this combination, since it deals directly with the issue of "drawing". IMO, here are the the verses we must somehow harmonize:


    John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

    John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 6:65 And He said, "[This is why I] said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

    John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples [all men] to Myself."


    I know the NIV renders John 12:32 as "all men" rather than "all peoples", which is why I put it in brackets, but I'll get to that later. Let's assume for a moment "all men" is an acceptable translation.

    In John 6, Jesus is clearly making the point that the ALL the Father gives Him WILL come to Him, and of ALL those, NONE will be turned away. Now, unless you believe in universal salvation, you must admit that there are OTHERS who do NOT come to Jesus, right? It is self-evident that these OTHERS are those the Father has not given Jesus, but let's not conclude that just yet.

    Later in John 6, Jesus reiterates that man is unable to come to Him without the Father's intervention. Jesus says this TWICE. Once, it is in the context of "drawing" and the other time it is in the context of "enabling". Since Jesus says, "This is why I told you..." we know that Jesus is talking about the same process, whether it be "drawing" or "enabling".

    So you have, in John 6, a very clear description of some SUBSET of people whom the Father enables and draws, who WILL COME to Jesus.

    Now suddenly in John 12, we have Jesus saying He will draw ALL MEN to Himself.

    How can we reconcile the differences? We have several choices, including (but not limited to):

    EXPLANATION 1: All men ARE drawn and enabled, and that's what John 6:44 and 6:65 mean. These people make their own choice as to whether or not they respond to the drawing and enabling. But there is a special group of people who are given to Jesus by the Father, as described in John 6:37. These OTHER people are GUARANTEED to come to Jesus and be saved.

    This almost seems to work if you try hard enough to believe it, but there are several problems with this interpretation. For one thing, the entire passage in John 6 is a coherent whole, where Jesus repeatedly hammers home that there is a difference between THESE people and THOSE people. THESE people are given to Jesus by the Father. THESE people are able to come to Jesus because the Father draws them. THESE people are able to come to Jesus because the Father enables them. The rest are NOT given, drawn, or enabled.

    How can we know this? Simple. Nobody explains an event by saying "That's why I told you nobody can come to me unless the Father enables him" if the Father enables everyone. What would be the point of saying that? There is none.

    On a more subtle and far less significant note, the idea that the Father saves some by free will and others by giving them directly to Jesus tosses a huge monkey wrench into the Arminian philosophy that God gives everyone an equal chance.

    EXPLANATION 2: In John 6, the Father is doing the drawing and enabling and giving. According to John 6, ALL the Father gives/draws/enables WILL come to Jesus. In John 12, Jesus says He is doing the drawing. Since we know that not everyone will come to Jesus, perhaps Jesus is simply not as effective at drawing men as the Father is.

    Do I really need to refute this explanation?

    EXPLANATION 3: John 6 clearly describes election. John 12:32 is NOT referring to "all men who ever lived, live or will live" but is referring to "all nations" or "all peoples".

    I happen to use the NKJV, which translates John 12:32 in such a way that it affirms this explanation. By saying "all peoples", it is obvious that Jesus is not referring to drawing every man who ever lived, lives or will live. He's talking about people from every nation, not just Israel.

    But to be fair, the NIV translates this as "all men", which implies that it could mean all men who ever lived, live or will live.

    To complicate matters, the Greek contains NEITHER "peoples" NOR "men". It only says "all". Translators have added "men" and "peoples" according to the way they interpret the passage.

    So now we have a job to do. We have to figure out if the NKJV translators did a better job than the NIV translators.

    Taken in the entire context, I believe the NKJV translators DID a better job. But rather than argue for that, allow me to end with the simplest of reasons why I will accept this conclusion unless anyone can offer a better one. It removes the apparent contradiction from scripture, and allows both John 6 and John 12 to make perfect sense in their own contexts.

    The bottom line is that nobody is concocting a theology on one verse. But neither can you take one verse (like John 12:32) and concoct a theology around it, especially when it contradicts the clear meaning of SEVERAL verses in John 6.
     
  17. Eric B

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    Maybe that might be referring to what Skandelon has been saying, but I don't believe in a special group guaranteed to come. The point of saying that would be that God was beginning to draw people to Jesus then, (starting with the disciples) and later, it would be extended to all, as 12:32 says.
    So perhaps it should be a fourth possibility.
     
  18. npetreley

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    Good point. I don't agree with it, but at least it is ALMOST a reasonable possibility. The reason I say "almost" is that you'd have to change the analysis of John 6.

    John 6 is a cohesive chapter which describes election from start to finish. Jesus says in John 6:37 that "All the Father gives me WILL come to me." I see John 6:44 and John 6:65 as a continuation or further explanation of that statement.

    Now, if you're going to say that later, it would be extended to all, as 12:32 says, then you are describing a situation where universal salvation begins with John 12:32. Why? Because in John 6, it is an either/or situation. Either they come to Jesus, or they do not. In the former case, they come to Jesus because they are given/drawn/enabled. They do not come to Jesus when they are not given/drawn/enabled.

    If John 12:32 extends the former to ALL MEN, then ALL MEN are given/drawn/enabled, and ALL MEN WILL COME, as is described in John 6:37.

    So while your assessment is a possibility, it requires that you break up the continuity of John 6 in order to reach that conclusion. Since the context of John 12 suggests "all" to mean "all peoples" (as even the NKJV translators believe), it is far less destructive to the entire text to reject this possibility, and stick with "all peoples".
     
  19. npetreley

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    Addendum: I browsed through various translations, and I noticed that (of the ones I browsed) they are split fairly evenly on John 12:32. Here are the two greatest extremes I could find.

    The amplified version says very plainly:

    John 12:32 And I, if and when I am lifted up from the earth [on the cross], will draw and attract all men [Gentiles as well as Jews] to Myself

    The message says...

    John 12:32 And I, as I am lifted up from the earth, will attract everyone to me and gather them around me."

    The latter is still a bit ambiguous, whereas the Amplified Bible comes right out and says "Gentiles and Jews". Obviously, technically, these are interpretations, not translations, but I thought you folks might find it interesting.
     
  20. Eric B

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    OK, so I guess that's why some have tried to say there was a special group guaranteed to come.

    BUT, one thing that has been missed, is that the first "come" in 6:37 is a different word from the others, including even the second one in that verse!. Rather than "erchomai" (come) it is actually "heko", meaning "to be present". So "all who are given of the Father" in this case will "come" (physically, that is) to be "present" before Him, but not all will "come" spiritually and be saved. Those who do, are the ones who will "in no wise be cast out". Notice, "THE ONE who comes to me..." Clearly, that is contrasted with "all that are given", being someone OUT OF that whole! As has been mentioned sometimes, Judas is the prime example of one who was "chosen" in that former sense, but still ended up lost!
     

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