If Calvinism is true is God a racist?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Jan 22, 2010.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    Now, I know you Calvinists are going to hammer me for this title, but this is an honest question. This is something I really struggled with when I was a Calvinist and I really do wonder how Calvinists answer this question.

    If you look at statistics regarding Christianity you will see some nationalities (such as the Chinese) have very few who claim to believe in Christ. I'm just wondering why?

    If indeed God is the one making the choice with regard to who He saves and who he passes over, then can we conclude that God more often passes over Asians while choosing Anglos? Could these stats rightly bring the objection that God is a racists in that he prefers to save Anglos more than Asians?

    Why do you suppose God chooses to save more people in a particular area of the world?
     
  2. annsni

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    Romans 9

    I don't question God's motives.
     
  3. jcjordan

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    You seriously have very serious issues.
     
  4. Winman

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    No, it is a very legitimate question. Why does God pass over people in Muslim countries? They often have 3% or less of their population as Christians compared to Europe or the Americas. And God passes over Asia until he gets down to Austrailia where the percentage goes up.

    Look at some of the statistics here.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country
     
  5. OldRegular

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    I suggest you read Job 38:1ff. A paraphrase of Verses 1 & 2 might read:

    1. Then the LORD answered Job {Skandelon} out of the whirlwind, and said,
    2. Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
     
  6. jcjordan

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    Amen! I must say, I've never heard this "calvinist God is racist" one before and it is just silly.
     
  7. Skandelon

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    I know the motives of God, as I understand Him. The motives I'm questioning are those of a God who saves "Calvinistically." Sure, I'm asking for speculation, but isn't that really the basis of most of the posts on this forum?

    I just want to know what a Calvinist would say to a Chinese man who questioned him about this apparent issue of God saving other groups significantly more often.

    On the same line of reasoning we could also discuss the high number of people who are saved at a young age.

    If indeed it is all God and none of man then it seems these stats are inconsistent. In the view of a Non-Calvinist, we would say that a child's heart has not grown hardened and is thus more open to a childlike faith which leads to more people accepting Christ early in life. And with regard to more people being saved in one country over others, we would say that the gospel is the sole means used to bring salvation so it goes to reason that where the gospel is being preached more people are responding in faith. But, if man has NOTHING to do with it and the gospel has no power apart from the "effectual call" of God, then how does a Calvinist answer these questions?

    I don't understand why you all react as if this is such a far fetched question. It is a legitimate and reasoned question that has been asked in a civil manner. What is the problem?
     
  8. annsni

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    The problem is your agenda. This is your ONLY focus. Why is that? What is it to you if I believe that God moves man and you believe that man moves God? We both will witness to others and some will be saved and some will not. End of story.

    I have to say that I find that those who I have encountered online who have a single issue agenda tend to be very immature. I'm not saying that's true with you because I don't know you outside of this but those who I've gotten to know better are those who are not well developed in their walk with the Lord. It's just an observation.
     
  9. Skandelon

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    This again, Ann? Really? It is my only focus HERE, because this is a Theology forum. I just got back from a youth rally that I coordinated where hundreds of teenagers repented and expressed faith in Christ. Yesterday, I worked on a mission center that will be housing 8 homeless teenage boys that my family has been in charge of raising funds for. Last week we met with a group of 130 students our ministry is sending to Tokyo. Do I need to go on? I hate listing this stuff cause it looks like boasting, but you have accused me of this one too many times and it is getting really old...especially with someone who averages 4 times more posts on this forum than I do.

    This is a very small part of my life and I enjoy discussing soteriology. Accusations like this are useless and tiresome. If you don't want to engage in my posts...DON'T. It is that simple Ann.
     
    #9 Skandelon, Jan 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2010
  10. annsni

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    Do you think that your experiences in these other areas can be helpful to your brothers and sisters in Christ? Do you think that sharing what you've learned in ministry could be encouraging/instructive to others? Do you not realize that these C/A threads are honestly getting old to most everyone here?? But instead you continue to keep picking and picking at the same thing over and over again. Think about it.
     
  11. Jerome

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    Abraham Kuyper, Lectures on Calvinism:

     
  12. psalms109:31

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    Salvation

    God has not chosen to save Calvinist, many of them who don't know Christ and Christ don't know them. Jesus will say I never knew you, you evil doer.

    The only one's who will be saved is those who have put their trust in Jesus. You can either believe men and what they believe or Jesus and His word.

    There is Calvinist that know Jesus and I do praise God for them. If a calvininst hasn't put their trust in Jesus they will not be saved.

    I cannot change their mind on the truth of foreknew or all, if they change it to fit their doctrine calvinist, arminist or whoever does that, then what can you do for them.

    You all just trust in Jesus and you will not be disappointed. Don't let men's idea bring you down let Jesus lift you up.
     
    #12 psalms109:31, Jan 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2010
  13. SolaSaint

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    "And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us" Acts 17:26-27

    I believe these verses excuse God of racism. Here we see the sovereignty of God in placing men, even men of all races in places where they can, with free will respond to God. Instead of making God out to be an Arminian or a Calvinist, we should allow the tension between both to give us the proper answer of the mystery of salvation.

    Isn't it man's disobedience that lands him in trouble? I heard a Christian radio show the other day comment on this and they asked what was the difference in South and North America, why was one Continent mostly Christian and the other not. They answered what I thought to be a very good response in that North America was discovered and populated by people wanting to spread the Gospel and worship God freely, whereas South America was discovered and populated by people wanting to get rich by searching for gold and other treasures. Look at the two today?
     
  14. OldRegular

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    I suppose it is quite easy to understand the motives of a god which you create in your own mind?
     
  15. Tom Butler

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    I suppose we could ask why God say this to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:

    Deut 7:7

    Why did God reveal himself to Abraham instead of his brothers Nahor and Haran?

    Why did he set his choose the descendants of Isaac and not Ishmael through whom the Redeemer would come?

    Why did he make a covenant with the Hebrews and not the Gentiles for two thousand years?

    Why did he send the Savior to the Jews first? And why did Jesus at first tell his disciples not to go to the Gentiles with the good news for three and a half years?

    I don't know.
     
  16. rsr

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    The short answer is we don't know why God chooses to save anyone in particular. And we really don't know what proportion of any group will, in fact, be saved, outward appearance notwithstanding.

    This is not a problem confined to Calvinism. From an Arminian perspective, how could God justly condemn someone for not responding to a call that he had not — because he had grown up in a culture ignorant of or hostile to Christianity — been able to hear?

    How would an Arminian explain the fact that, for much of Christian history, vast expanses of the globe had not received the Gospel? Would that explanation be any different from a Calvinist's?

    But in A.D. 100, for example, could not you make the same argument that God was racist because he favored those in the Mediterranean above those in sub-Saharan Africa, or England, or North America, or Australia? At that time you might have argued that God preferred to save Asians more than Anglos.

    I don't think Calvinism has any more inherent problems than Arminianism in answering this question.
     
  17. kyredneck

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    Excellent post!

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Noah's Prophecy; How 'racist' can you get?

    25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
    26 And he said, Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant.
    27 God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant. Gen 9


    Read Pink:

    [Edited by me; I meant to include this from Pink also: "In the curse passed upon Canaan we find an exceedingly solemn instance of the sins of the fathers being visited upon the children. In this day of human pride and skepticism, when everything is questioned and challenged, men have dared to criticize the ethics of this hereditary law. It has been termed unmerciful and unjust. The humble believer does not attempt to pry into things which are too deep for him, it is enough for him that the thrice holy God has instituted this law and therefore he knows it is a righteous one whether he can see the justice of it or no.

    Ham’s sin consisted of an utter failure to honor his father. He was lacking, altogether, in filial love. Had he really cared for his father at all he would have acted as his brothers did; but instead, he manifested a total disrespect for and subjection unto his parent. And mark the fearful consequence: he reaped exactly as he had sown—Ham sinned as a son and was punished in his son! The punishment meted out to Ham was that his son shall be brought into subjection to others, his descendants shall be compelled to honor, yea, "serve" others—"servant of servants" (v. 25) implies the lowest drudgery, slavery.

    It is to be noted that the "curse" uttered by Noah did not fall directly on Ham but upon one of his sons, the fourth—"Canaan " (Gen. 10:6). As we shall seek to show, this curse was not confined to Canaan but embraced all the descendants of Ham. It is highly probable that "Canaan" was specifically singled out from the rest of his brethren as a special encouragement to the Israelites who, centuries later, were to go up and occupy the Promised land. Moses would thus be taught by the Holy Spirit that a special curse rested upon the then occupants of the land, i.e., the Canaanites. Yet, as we have said, all of Ham’s children appear to have been included within the scope of this malediction as is evident from the fact that no blessing at all was pronounced upon Ham as was the case with each of his brothers."
    ]





    "...O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?....


    You Arminians; your gripe is not with the monergists; your gripe is against God.
     
    #17 kyredneck, Jan 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2010
  18. Martin

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    That is a very poor argument (whether one is a Calvinist or not). Revelation 7:9 is very clear that there are elect from "every nation, tribes, and peoples and tongues...". So, no, God is not racist (the very idea is blasphemy).

    The statistics you are looking at are also misleading. Why?

    You are assuming that such stats are truly representative of who is and who is not saved. I would argue the stats cannot be representative of true salvation numbers. Why not? First, many lost (church or nonchurch) people know the "correct" answers. Second, these stats are selective, not everyone is included. Third, certain areas of the globe will be under representated in these stats due to the nature of their societies.

    If you want to discuss/debate Calvinism, why don't you go to the Scriptures.
     
  19. Robert Snow

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    Speak for yourself! I don't remember you complaining when many threads were being started by pro-Calvinistic posters. I believe the problem with this thread is it shows you yet another reason why Calvinism is wrong, and you don't want to hear it.
     
  20. canadyjd

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    First of all. I did a quick google and found this:

    http://www.bellbookandcandlepublications.com/greenwoodsvillage/gor/christn.php

    This supports the statistical claim that, as a percentage, Asia has less numbers of professing Christians than Western countries.

    I did notice, however, that in actual numbers, Asia has more professing Christians than North America. Therefore, your claim that "very few" claim to be Christians is not accurate.

    You can accurately say that there are more Christians in Asia than in North America.​

    Secondly, from an Arminian perspective, could you explain why the "free-will" of Asians has been so resistive to the gospel, while the "free-will" of western whites has been so receptive?​

    IOW's, since Western white people more inclined to accept the gospel, you must believe Western white people are superior in some way than the Asians. Arminians must believe that God has made Western whites better, making their "free-will" more acceptable to the gospel.​

    So, based on these statistics, a person could conclude that Arminians are racists, because they believe Western whites are superior to other races because their "free-will" is more inclined to accept the gospel.​

    peace to you:praying:​
     
    #20 canadyjd, Jan 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2010

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