If someone holds that the healing, signs and wonders...

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by pk4life, Jul 21, 2014.

  1. pk4life

    pk4life
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    ...recorded in the Acts are no longer performed today (because we have the completed Bible, they are no longer necessary); should they also hold that the Macedonian call is irrelevant to today's crop of missionaries and pastors?

    After all, we know by God's written word what a missionary, teacher, preacher, deacon, bishop needs to be.
     
  2. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    What a crock. A false dichotomy.

    The message that the only sign needed for conversion of lost souls is the changed life of the one who brings that message. That has been proven through the miracle of salvation literally billions of times down through two millennia. That is why Paul clearly states in 1 Corinthians 13 that the confirmation of the message through signs, wonders and prophecy would soon after his writing no longer be necessary.The word confirms the miracle Christ does in everyone. And what does the word say?
    Matthew 28, NASB
    19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
    20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."


    Mark 16:15
    15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."
     
  3. pk4life

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    Can you explain a little further? I am uncertain at this point whether or not I was too vague in my OP, or if I am misunderstanding your post.
     
  4. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Maybe you don't understand your post. Specifically, you asked if anyone holding to the idea that " ... the healing, signs and wonders ... are no longer performed today (because we have the completed Bible, they are no longer necessary) ... " shouldn't also hold that the work of the missionary is no longer valid.

    The two subjects are not related in any way to the validity of their first century context vs. the invalid use of "signs and wonders" to confirm a message that now confirms itself via the changed life it brings, and the continuing validity of the missionary's work of spreading the message that changes lives.
     
  5. pk4life

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    Not that I don't understand what I post, just that my explanation was sub-par.

    I wasn't intending to ask if missionaries are no longer valid. I apologize for my poorly worded OP.

    Rather, specifically, that if the call from God is needed.

    If there are no signs and wonders to prove it, how then do we say God only calls specific individuals to the ministry?
     
  6. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    As I said, the changed lives of the billions who have believed without seeing the signs and wonders are miracle enough to prove the validity of the message. Jesus told us that would be the case.
    John 14, NASB
    12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father."
    Those greater works we will do than Jesus Himself? Not signs and wonders. The testimony of our salvation that gives hope to others who would believe in Him. That is a true miracle, that the work done in simply telling the truth will change lives, and the world.
     
  7. pk4life

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    You're speaking of the results of ones ministry, not proof of a calling straight from God.

    With the Apostle Paul, the church already knew Paul was God's chosen vessel before he had started any of his ministry.
     
  8. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Are not all believers called to preach the gospel? If therefore all are called, then how do you pretend to link to the question of whether the end of the signs and miracles have ended? Not everyone who believed was given the gifts of tongues, healing, prophecy, etc. but all are called to share Christ. Therefore, you are speaking of such a calling ending as being an end to the ministry of Christ on Earth. Surely you don't mean to suggest such a thing?
    Really? So the church at Jerusalem was ready willing and able to receive Paul as a minister of the Gospel? :rolleyes:

    Acts 9, NASB
    26 When he came to Jerusalem, he was trying to associate with the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he was a disciple.
    27 But Barnabas took hold of him and brought him to the apostles and described to them how he had seen the Lord on the road, and that He had talked to him, and how at Damascus he had spoken out boldly in the name of Jesus.
    No, the church did not "already know Paul was God's chosen vessel."
     
  9. InTheLight

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    pk4life, I think I know what you are asking. Please tell me if the following explanation is accurate.

    Just as some believe that the gift of tongues, healings, signs and wonders are no longer needed because they are no longer necessary to spread the gospel, is the Macedonian Call (described in Acts 16:6-10) also unnecessary? That is, do missionaries today need to have a clear call from the Holy Spirit to lead them to missionary work and/or a particular country?
     
  10. DHK

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    Initially, after Saul's conversion, almost everyone feared him. No one but Ananias and perhaps just a very few others recognized that he was called. It was Barnabas that introduced him to the Apostles. They also feared Saul, and that was three years after his conversion to Christ. Before that time he was in Arabia:

    Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
    16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
    17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
    18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

    Every Christian is a missionary. The word, comes from the Latin mittere, which in tern comes from the Greek apostlos--one sent with a message. We are all sent with a message, the message of salvation to those who do not have it.

    You are either a missionary or a mission field.

    God commanded his disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel.
    There is no command to stay home.
    If you need a special calling that calling better be to "stay home," not to go. Not to go, would be disobedience.
     
  11. pk4life

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    Precisely. Thankyou. Odd that you could get that out of my mindless bumblings.
     
  12. pk4life

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    Thankyou for that explanation. That was helpful to my question.

    Basically, I'm interested in knowing how wide spread this idea that one must hear a call from God before they serve as a pastor or missionary is.
     
  13. pk4life

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    Yes, you are more eloquent than I.

    Thankyou
     
  14. exscentric

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    That is what I took it for the first time I read it as well as a reread later - maybe our minds just run on the same tracks :)

    All are called to be witnesses, in my mind a missionary should have a special realization that it is to a certain field of service.
     
  15. John of Japan

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    Probably 99% of fundamentalist missionaries believe in the call and say they have one. Having a call from God gives great peace and strength in the difficult times.

    In 37 years since I joined the mission board I've only known one IFB missionary who didn't believe he had a call, and he didn't last. The stress of the job almost killed him and the doctor told him to return to the States or he would die.
     
  16. righteousdude2

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    Most know what I believe, so.....

    ....I'll not jump back into that fire pit! However, I do not believe that healing, signs and wonders ever ended, based on this verse: "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.…" John 14:12-14 (NIV).

    I have witnessed more than answers to prayer. I have seen miracles, and I think others on this board have seen them too. I have seen signs and wonders, and while we are not to go seeking these things, God is still in the supernatural business of doing the impossible and lighting up the darkest night!
     
  17. just-want-peace

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    Perhaps the reason(s) miracles aren't as obvious today as opposed to "back then":

    1 We are too sophisticated for such primitive beliefs

    2 We are too used to "modern miracles" of chemistry/electronics etc----

    3 We can, much of the time, "BUY" ourselves out of the jams we get into

    4 We don't "NEED" God like "they" did because of our affluence/busyness/"do-it-yourself" attitudes etc---

    5 Last, but not least IMO, we think that God has changed His operations when it's really that we do not DEPEND on Him like many before us; too much independent spirit in us!!!

    I have read too many first hand accounts from missionaries that have verified miracles where dependence on God was critical, as there were no hospitals, grocery stores, banks, yada, yada, yada.

    Most of us have ever been in such straits, so have never needed miracles to survive.
     
  18. pk4life

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    It is true, that missionaries say as much. I can't recount a missionary saying anything less.

    I guess, gaining understanding of what they mean is where I coming from.

    If they say miracles performed through men by God, as is recorded in the Acts, are no longer existent (I've never been directly exposed, due to the churches I attend, to missionaries who claim they have healing powers and such).

    Yet they use the Macedonian call to explain how missionaries are called to the field.

    I have no doubt the Holy Spirit works in and through these individuals. But to me, this idea of using the Macedonian call to explain the calling of these missionaries, seems to be a bit grandiose.

    I have had instances where I felt God's direction in my life, also. But I've never received a vision from God that was so clear I immediately sought to follow it.

    One pastor said to me "deacons and sunday school teachers don't get any special calling from God, like pastors and missionaries do".
     
  19. pk4life

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    Farbeit from me to dispute someones claim to miracles they've witnessed.

    The idea is specific men that are endowed with the gifts of healing, and miracle working as recorded in the Acts, no longer exist.

    Not that God doesn't work miracles any longer.
     
  20. Yeshua1

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    We have those qualifications for us in the Bible, but no need to have jesus appear to you in a dream to become a missionary!
     

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