Imagine:

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Havensdad, Jan 2, 2012.

  1. Havensdad

    Havensdad
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    I want those of you who are heavily in favor of the police action overseas to stop and think for a moment. Put yourselves in the shoes of an Iraqi or Iran, or Afghani mother or father. Imagine that you were an honest, hardworking farmer, trying to raise your kids.

    One day you go to town. Your little 6 year old girl goes with you. Suddenly from above, the sound of planes...you grab her hand and run for shelter, but its to late. An explosion rips her hand from yours, and sends you hurtling across the ground.

    You awake, a short time later. Bodies are all around you, along with U.S. ground troops. Among the bodies, you see your precious little girl, her eyes staring blankly up at the sky...

    Put yourself in the shoes of this father. What would you do? How would you feel? I pray you watch this with an open mind.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao461iG9UsA
     
  2. Don

    Don
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    They're not "Afghani"; "afghani" is an adjective for things, not people. Citizens of the country of Afghanistan call themselves "Afghans."

    Quite a few poor assumptions throughout this video. Would have been better if they'd stuck with just the last line about not wanting Chinese in Texas.
     
  3. webdog

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    This could have been the scenario in any war throughout history.
     
    #3 webdog, Jan 3, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2012
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    I recently watched the documentary film 'Restrepo', which leaves nothing to the imaginination, you're right there with these young soldiers of the 173rd Airborne like a 'fly on the wall' during their tour of duty in the Korangal valley, Afghanistan. (my youngest SOL barely missed this particular action and personally knew Restrepo and others in the film (he won't watch it))

    The film perfectly demonstrates the points made in the OP video, except the view is from the invaders point of view. It's a sobering film. One has to ask, what are we accomplishing there? Why are we doing this?
     
    #4 kyredneck, Jan 3, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2012
  5. Sapper Woody

    Sapper Woody
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    Imagine that you are a child, sitting in school one day. You are minding your own business, and then someone comes and gets you from class. You sit outside the principal's office for a bit, wondering if you are in trouble for something. When they call you in to the office, there is the prinicipal, along with a guidance counselor, maybe an Aunt of Uncle. They then give you the bad news. Your Father or Mother was at work in the twin towers, when suddenly a jihadist flew a plane into the tower, and your parent is unaccounted for.

    You go to ground zero a few days later, seeing the wreckage of what happened, wondering if your parent is alive in there, unable to scream for help, slowly dying under the weight of tons of wreckage.

    Now, take that and multiply it. Not just in America, but all over the world. That's what will happen if aggressive countries are allowed nuclear weapons.
     
  6. Robert Snow

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    Those who want to justify aggressive wars will find any excuse. It is not the job of American soldiers to impose our will on other sovereign countries, although we have, and have had administrations that do this that.
     
  7. preacher4truth

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    Thanks for your service. May God Almighty give you and troops the wisdom and ability to stop terrorists from killing others, and may all of you know that the wisdom He gives to do so, at each time comes from Him. We pray that God protects you and those with you brother.
     
  8. preacher4truth

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    Those who want to justify aggressive terrorist acts on others will find any excuse to do so. It is not right for terrorist cowards to impose their will upon others, killing bystanders who are not prepared to fight back. This is the epitome of cowardess, and, we have even at this time those who are willing to do just that.
     
  9. Robert Snow

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    Warmongers abound in today's America, especially here on the Baptistboard. The ironic thing is that so many of these are pastors who preach the Gospel of the Prince of Peace. As long as America ranks on the same level as the Gospel we will continue to have this problem. If one cannot separate the two, they should resign their church position and allow someone more qualified to lead the flock.
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    I dont have to imagine it.....I lost many friends that day. For me & many who live in the NY Metro area...it was real!
     
  11. Sapper Woody

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    Those who think we are fighting an aggressive war right now are ignorant of the facts. We are not aggressive at all, merely reactive. Let me tell you a couple stories:

    1. My platoon was tasked with clearing routes up North from our FOB in order to allow a following unit to escort Afghan trucks delivering wheat seed to farmers. The intent was to enable farmers to gain more independence, and grow food to keep villages from suffering because of hunger.
    On the way up the route, my Platoon was hit with an IED. It disabled a truck. We adjusted and kept moving. We got hit with a second IED. It disabled another truck, and we had to medivac a friend of mine.
    We finally cleared the route, and the unit escorted the Afghans up north. On the way, they took incoming fire from terrorists. Who did the terrorists fire at? Not the escorts, but the Afghans. Before the mission, we had to pay the Afghans much more than their original asking price to go up north, as they already knew that the terrorists would target them, and not us.
    When the Afghan trucks came into the compound that my platoon was in, we received indirect fire (mortars) from terrorists. They didn't attack the compound until they knew the Afghan trucks were there. After the Afghan trucks left, there was no more IDF.
    In this scenario, who is the oppressors?

    2. We recently had a situation in which one of our vehicles was disabled near a village. While recovering it, I was tasked with taking our interpreter to the nearby children, as they were getting in the way of the recovery, and were in danger if something should fail.
    While I was out there, the children were excitedly showing me their school books, and kept shouting "Khalum Braka" (phonetically spelled), which the interpreter told me meant "Give us pens" (ink pens).
    An old man came up, and through the interpreter, thanked me for keeping the roads clear of IEDs that kill his villagers. He offered me some Afghani bread, "non", and asked if they could help with recovery.
    Sounds like they hate us, huh?

    3. Frequently in our area, the IEDs that are found are not discovered by Coalition Forces. About half the time, they are focused on the Afghan Police, or the Afghan Army. There is reason to believe that the ones we hit are also majorly targeting the Afghan Army/Police.

    Is what we are doing over here wrong? Providing food and security? Making people's lives better? Allowing people the opportunity to have some semblence of quality of life?

    Did you know that in the last year, the amount of children registered for school in our area has increased ten times? From 4,000 to 40,000? Our presence and actions over here right now are ensuring not only that there are no terrorist activities being planned for American soil, but it is also helping to ensure that the people here realize that America is not an enemy, but a friend, providing for future relations.

    For not condoning us being over here, you sure are reaping the benefits.

    I have made it clear time and time again that I do not wish war on anyone. But if my actions can assure that my children never see war, I will gladly go to war. You act as if I enjoy sitting over here, away from my wife and three kids, in danger almost every day. Fact is, I am as tired of this war as anyone else.

    Regardless of the reason we came over here in the first place, we are here. Whatever happened to get us here happened before I joined, and there is nothing I can do about the past. I can only take what I am given, and try to ensure the best possible future with it. And I am helping to ensure that once we are out of here, we won't have to worry about terrorist attacks from this country, and that the people here are provided for once we leave.

    I will never try and justify the reason we entered Iraq or Afghanistan. Again, that was before my time. I didn't start the war. But I am going to help finish it. I would gladly fight any war that is necessary to ensure the survival of our nation, and the security of my family.

    "Pacifism is feeding a tiger steaks, hoping he'll become a vegetarian" -unknown to me
     
    #11 Sapper Woody, Jan 3, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2012
  12. Havensdad

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    Why is it when we get bombed in our own country, its "terrorism," but when we bomb innocent civilians in another country, its "protecting freedom"?

    Why are Afghan children less valuable than American? The terrorists do not win by isolated acts of violence. We will ALWAYS have this; it will never end. But these are crimes, done by individuals. It makes no sense to turn around and kill thousands of men, women and Children that had nothing to do with the attack. All that does is make more terrorists.

    Why is it so hard to empathize with these people? Has the media effectively brainwashed the SOUL out of the American people? It is amazing to me, that the only place where I find agreement, is with our troops! I have a bunch of friends who have been to Iraq, to Korea, and to other occupied countries, and they tend to agree with me; having the troops over there does more harm than good. They all talk about the resentment and hatred the people feel for us being there...

    And yet, the civilians in this country have been so brainwashed by the left/right propaganda, that they actually go against what the people on the ground are saying. Amazing.
     
  13. Havensdad

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    Now put the same scenario in Texas. There are traitors who are allying themselves with China. What would YOU do?

    (FYI: I appreciate your service and our troops. I do NOT blame them, or you. I blame the idiots in Washington).

    The fact is, we have no right to be there. The Afghan people still, overwhelmingly, want us gone. We cannot afford to be there. We are eventually going to leave, because we won't be able to continue our financial, budgetary trickery to continue the fighting. Then we will be so broke, we won't even be able to patrol our own streets.

    There is always people who will attempt to make friends with those who are occupying their land. This is true of any war. I have heard just as many stories the other way.

    Its wrong for several reasons:

    #1 It is not authorized by the constitution.

    #2 It is not supported by the people of the United States, who are paying the taxes (63 percent want immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan).

    #3 It is not popularly supported by the people being occupied (last report I saw, 75 percent of the Afghan people want the American troops to leave, and consider them an oppressive occupying force).

    #4 We cannot afford it. We are currently borrowing money from one of our fiercest rivals (China) to fund the work being done their. The currency of our country is in serious trouble do the continued quantitative easing, and if we do not shut down the overseas police action now, our Country will be in such a quagmire of debt, that there can be no recovery. Then we will lose superpower status, and quite possibly China, or the other, very oppressive powers will replace us. That would be VERY BAD>

    You understand that school attendance increased under many dictatorial regimes. That does not mean things are better for the people. "School" is not the end all/be all of existence. Most of the people want us to leave. We cannot financially afford to stay. And please, my friend. Blowing up civilians in Afghanistan, does not in any way keep terrorism from U.S. soil. Every time you blow up a dad or son or mom or daughter, you make new terrorists from their surviving family members.

    What benefits would those be? Having rights stripped away, and our Republic dismantled, for a pretend war, that has killed fewer Americans on U.S. soil than slipping in the bathtub?

    Again, this is not an attack on you. You signed up to defend this country, and I greatly appreciate your sacrifice. I do not blame YOU, I blame the evil men in Washington, who are furthering their agenda, and pandering to the armament lobbyists who have bought their careers. And I applaud you for doing what good you can over there. But I believe it ultimately makes more terrorists, and makes us less safe.

    Your children, FYI, are going to be in the same boat mine are going to be in. Being a part of a dictatorial empire, that was chipped away piece by piece by fear.

    Again, I applaud your service, and I am glad you are making the best out of a bad situation.

    Aggression is kicking a pit bull, hoping he'll start being nice to you.
     
  14. Sapper Woody

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    Because we don't target innocent civilians? We actually protect innocent civilians? See my previous post.

    No one has said that they are. However, if they die as collateral damage, it is sad, but it is on the hands of the people who hide behind them, not on those who seek to stop terrorism.

    I agree that that would make more terrorists. But that is a fabricated reality; it doesn't happen.

    They must be some other country than I have been to. I have been to Iraq for a year, and have been (and currently am in) Afghanistan for 5 months. The people here have only expressed gratitude to us. (Again, see my previous post).

    We don't blow up civilians. I don't know why you keep saying that.

    No, it's kicking a pit bull that's growling at you in order to show your dominance so it respects you.
     
    #14 Sapper Woody, Jan 3, 2012
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  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    It's astounding to me how many on this board appear to be totally incapable of comprehending this small detail. The longer we go on like this the more likely it is our economy will be wrecked so that our children will have nothing.
     
  16. kyredneck

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    No more collateral damage? Where was Restrepo filmed?
     
  17. Havensdad

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    Please, brother. Like Chowkar-Karez, a farming village? 93 dead civilians, including women and children.

    No, its on the hands of us, for occupying there land. They would not be dead, if we weren't over there.

    WHAT? According to the reports, 500,000 children dead, in Iraq alone, through collateral damage and sanctions (starving them to death). That has the potential to make 1 million terrorists. I know what I would do, if someone blew up my precious little girl. "Collateral damage" or not, they just became my enemy!

    Again, when someone is holding a rifle, it tends to make you nicer to them. I have a couple of friends who served in Iraq..they definitely do not want us there. And the surveys of Afghan people (when your not standing their with a rifle) says they want us to leave, too.

    That is simply not true. Just in the military airstrikes of October 2001-January 2002, more than 1000 direct, non combatant, civilian casualties were reported, with another 3200 who died due to starvation, illness, and injury, fleeing the war zones.

    When you could just step out of its cage.
     
  18. Sapper Woody

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    And we wouldn't be over here (right now, again I will not debate the beginning of the war. I am dealing with the reality here and now) if the terrorists would quit killing innocent civilians, and quit attacking us.

    Firstly, produce the reports. Secondly, sanctions do not count towards ANY body count from us. People dying due to sanctions is not our responsibility at all. To not sanction countries who are engaged in aggressive behavior is to promote their behavior.

    Then you don't know the people here. If they don't like you, they let you know. They know that we don't retaliate against civilians. If we go into an area that is Taliban friendly, we get rocks thrown at us, and the children steal things off our trucks. But these instances are in the minority compared to those friendly to us.

    Of course they don't want us there. But they appreciate us there. Huge difference.

    Links, please.
     
  19. Don

    Don
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    I can't argue the financial aspect, so I won't try.

    Haven, you keep talking about your friends that were there and believe the Afghans don't want us there; you seem to be refusing to acknowledge that others of us who have been over there, and some who are there now, also know Afghans who want us there. I personally knew quite a few who don't want us to leave. The fact.of the matter is, some want us gone, some want us to stay. The only point you're correct about is that no one wants strangers who have a different way of life, different viewpoints, different morals sticking around and changing things.

    Haven keeps bringing up "bombing civilians" and comparing it with the terrorists who bomb civilians. Here's the problem with that comparison: terrorists knowingly target civilians. There is no such thing as "collateral damage" for them; their goal is to kill and destroy as much as possible in order to draw attention to their wants and desires. American troops, on the other hand, go through a vetting process to determine target validity. The process is not perfect, and often relies on local intelligence; and you'd be surprised how many middle easterners will report on a neighboring village or a rival business associate simply because it will benefit them to do so.

    Haven derided Woody's comment about school; when America was helping the Taliban get the Russians out of Afghanistan, an analyst made the statement that America needed to help them build schools, or we'd find ourselves back there in 10 years. He was right. The fact of the matter is that the country as a whole is 70% illiterate. I cannot emphasize strongly enough that you can either take away education from them, and keep them dependent on you for support; or you can teach them, and help them learn to take care of themselves.
     
  20. JonnyP

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    Personally, I enjoy living in a safe country...I don't know if "havensdad" has realized this or not, but we have not been attacked on American soil in 10 and a half years...although you may not appreciate that fact, I do!!! May God bless all of our military as they protect our country and protect our freedom. Its because of American soldiers who have paid the ultimate sacrifice for our freedom that allow ignorant people to have these anti-military, anti-freedom, anti-Bible views... "a time of war, and a time of peace." Ecclesiastes 3:8 KJV God bless our military, and God bless America!
     

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