Imminent Return of Christ

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by MISSIONARY, May 24, 2004.

  1. MISSIONARY

    MISSIONARY
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    I am in a big debate with a friend on this subject. I believe that Christ could come back to rapture believers at any moment. No event must happen before His coming.

    The Lord and the Apostles were constantly teaching the disciples to look and watch for His return. So I believe that early Christians lived in expectation of the imminent return of the Lord.

    My friend, says that he cannot see where the NT teaches an imminent return. Such statements such as that Peter will live to be an old man, the great commission and many other such things take time and therefore it is impossible to believe in an imminent return of Christ.

    What is your take on this subject?
     
  2. dianetavegia

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    Good Morning Missionary and welcome to the board.

    I agree and believe that Jesus could come at any second but everytime I link to increased earthquakes or odd weather in diverse places, I get laughed out of the thread. [​IMG]

    2 Peter 3:1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior,

    3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."

    15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

    1 Thessalonians 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

    Matthew 24:3 - "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows."

    GET AN UP TO THE MINUTE REPORT OF SEISMIC ACTIVITY HERE.
    http://www.iris.edu/seismon/

    One of the things Jesus predicted that would increase in both frequency and intensity shortly before His return is earthquakes. Earthquakes have done just that becoming so common that the entire planet has become conscious of their destructive force. Critics of Jesus' prophetic statements claim that the increase in earthquake numbers and intensity are merely the result of better technology (sensing equipment and reporting systems). We should realize however that virtually every culture from earliest recorded history has left records of earthquakes. These were such devastating and unpredictable catastrophes that throughout the ages they were recorded. So let's get out of the way that earthquakes have only recently began to be recorded. Making records of them is NOT a recent phenomenon.

    http://www.iamnotofthisworld.com/

    Come Quickly... Lord Jesus!
     
  3. blackbird

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    Imminate, true! At any given moment since Pentecost and the giving of the gospel to the Gentile world

    Next question---looking for His return---for "rescue" or for "revelation"??? For Him to rescue us or for Him to reveal to us---Himself??
     
  4. Pete Richert

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    I don't think the critics would agree that earthquarkes have increased in intensity. As for frequency, they are correct. Of course earthquarkes have been recorded all through history but it wasn't until recently that quakes that were localized or of low intensity could be recorded at all. So it was impossible for them to record them. Second, it was only til recently that would would record every little shake. Surviving documents of 2000 years ago is rare, and people writing down they felt the ground shake probably won't be copied 500 times unless it really cost some damage and lives. That is why only major earthquakes from antiquity have been remembered, they were worth remembering.

    If you can prove per some documentation that the intensity of earthquakes have increased, then you would be onto something. Do you have any sources for this, preferably one that is not coming from a rapture propaganda website? I would be very interested.
     
  5. Karen

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    How about both? He will rescue us from sin and death forever as His presence is revealed.

    Karen
     
  6. dianetavegia

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    Number of Earthquakes Worldwide for 1990 - 1999
    Located by the US Geological Survey National Earthquake Information Center

    Magnitude 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999
    4.0 to 4.9 4493 4372 5196 4999 4518 8003 8756 7903 7303 6972

    Total 16612 16516 19548 21476 19371 21007 19938 19872 21688 20832

    Estimated
    Deaths 51916 2326 3814 10096 1634 7980 589 3069 9430 22662
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I can link to MANY sites but you've got a computer and an address bar. SEARCH [​IMG]
     
  7. Dr. Bob

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    Imminent return FOR his Bride, to take us from earth before the wrath is poured out in the Tribulation. It is a timeless, signless event.

    But that is just "phase one". He will complete his return WITH his Bride after that in "phase two". Destroy Satan's host at Armegeddon and establish a literal kingdom on a literal throne in Jerusalem for 1000 years.

    It is ALL the "return" of Christ - just slightly separated (7 years or so) - of which there are MANY signs . . including Diane's earthquake monitor!!
     
  8. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother Dr. Bob Griffin -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    The reason that the return of Jesus
    to pick us up is more likely now than
    it was in the past is that NOW IS LATER THAN
    THEN. No, he reason that the return of Jesus
    to pick us up is more likely now than
    it was in the past is not due to an increase
    in the signs of Matthew 24:4-14.

    Ed's writing on Matthew 24:4-14:
    -------------------------------------------
    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables.

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. I believe the major
    outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    last days, etc&gt;)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
    ------------------------------------------

    Consider Matthew 24:14.
    This sign of the church age was first
    reported done in about 61AD by Paul
    in Colossians 1:6.

    197AD Tertullian (c160-222) proclames "There is no nation
    indeed which is not Christian"

    c310AD Eusevius of Caesarea (c265-369) writes
    "The doctrine of the Saviour has irradiated
    the whole Oikumene (whole inhabited earth).

    535AD Cosmas Indicopleusies, Nestorian merchant missionary over most of the
    world retires to a monastery and in 547 complets his global
    survey TOPOGRAPHIA CHRISTIANA in 12 books.

    1523AD The Spanish monarach orders Cortes to
    enforce mass conversion of Amerindians
    acorrr sthe NEw World; In Mexico, Franciscans
    baptize over a million in 7 years,
    over 6 million in 17 years in Mexico
    alone.

    1530AD Luther and Calvin teach that Great Commission (Mark 16:15) was
    work of 1st century Apostles only and expired with them :(

    Even today the Good news of Christ is spread
    abroad and around the world.
    Continued fulfillment of the prophecy
    of Matthew 24:14 throughout all the
    church age. Amen.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. just-want-peace

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    I find myself yearning for this day!

    Just think, no more petty bickering, no more hurt feelings, no more mosquitoes (or at least they won't be feeding on us). Everybody will get along with everybody else, no jealousy, no envy, no fighting temptations, no seeing loved ones suffer.

    Man, I go to bed listening for the trumpet, & wake up knowing that it could be "TODAY"!

    No, I'm not trying to convince myself that life is not worthwhile, or trying to accelerate my demise, but the thought of a sin free world, and me not having to constantly fight "the old man" is a wonderful hope.

    I've wondered sometimes if I'm really serving any worthwhile purpose here, and I've asked God to clue me in. Well, I had a dream t'other night that I interpreted to be that God still has a purpose for me here, although I have no idea what it may be.

    In fact I was specific enough to request that if I knew & it would make me be too "proud" that I not be given such info, just let me know that I do have a purpose; that's what I got.

    But this does not in the least weaken my anticipation of the trumpet's blare and the shout.

    MARANATHA!!!! [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  10. LadyEagle

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    Yep, laugh me off the board if you will. Ridicule me if you have to.

    But I'm still listening for that sweet trumpet sound & looking up - my Redemption draweth nigh!

    As the old song says - "Signs of the times are everywhere...." [​IMG]
     
  11. Watchman

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    Not laughing here LadyEagle, I agree!
     
  12. Pennsylvania Jim

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    Here's the problem with earthquakes, etc.:

    If you believe in the imminent return of Christ, that automatically implies that there are NO signs that need fulfilment. Imminence means that He could have returned in 1562 or 982 AD. It means he could return before I finish this post. If there are signs that need fulfilment, His return is not imminent. John R, Rice published a good booklet called "Christ is Returning, Signs or No Signs". If you can find a copy, it's worth reading.

    BTW, it also does not imply that we KNOW He is returning "soon"...and I'm glad that those who went before us didn't use it as an excuse to neglect building and preserving for the future, as we often do.
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    First Jesus comes to get the saints and take them
    to heaven.

    Later, the earth quakes described in Revelation 6:14
    move every mountain and island from it's place.

    Later the earth quakes described in Revelation 16:17-20
    cause every mountain and island to disappear.

    Then Jesus comes in power and glory over the Antichrist
    to destroy him.

    Sorry, the big quake signs are before the Second Coming
    of Jesus, phase 2, not phase 1 (the rapture/resurrection).

    Please note that the quakes now are nothing like
    a world-wide moving of mountans and islands.
    The world-wide quakes that move mountains and islands
    are nothing like the later flattening of the islands
    and mountains.

    So these little quakes now are just a sign that the
    church age continues and we should be about our business
    of doing the Great Commission.
     
  14. Pennsylvania Jim

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    Are they a sign at all? Didn't Jesus speak lowly of the habit of always looking for signs?
     
  15. Pete Richert

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    dianetavegia,

    The numbers you posted make no sense to me. Indeed freqeuncy of 4.0-4.9 seems to be declining between 1995-1999, is Christ changing his mind?

    If you have many sites them post them. It is general practice that if one makes an assertion, especially about documented measured data, that they provide their own source. I have never been in a discussion where someone said, "I have evidence for this, but you go find it yourself" And please provide a source that documents that intensity of earthquakes is picking up, not frequency, as we have already established that frequency is not a uniform measurment across time.
     
  16. Grasshopper

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    If 1948 was a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy then Christ couldn't return before then. Therefore the immenence of the NT writers was false.

    20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
    21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
    22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled .
    23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
    24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword , and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    25 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows;
    26 men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
    27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    28 But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.
     
  17. Ed Edwards

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    20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
    21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
    22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled .
    23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
    24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword , and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    25 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows;
    26 men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
    27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    28 But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.
    </font>[/QUOTE]What happened in 1948 that fulfilled anything
    in this scripture?

    I would be real careful saying that
    anytime God wanted to, he could fulfill
    any part of prophecy He might want to.

    Also, you seem to be getting the immenint
    pretrib rapture confused with the prescheluded
    postrib rapture :confused:
     
  18. Dr. Bob

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    Move over, Jack Van Impe!

    He believed 1948 and a generation was 50 years, so it had to be 1998.

    Then he switched to 1967 (when Jerusalem was freed) and a generation was 34 years so it had to be 2001.

    Where will the date setters be next?
     
  19. LadyEagle

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    He was 10 years off, LOL. It's 2008. Or sooner. [​IMG]

    Okay, logging off and going to bed now. [​IMG]
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    Nothing. It is those of your persuasion that say Israel becoming a state in 1948 was a fulfillment of prophecy.

    Ok.......but I said no such thing. Is it your position then that He could not at anytime fulfill prophecy?

    Im neither pre nor post. LadyEagle is the confused one pointing to Luke 21 for her rapture.

    28 But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.

    LadyEagle
     

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