Imminent Return of Christ

But the Lord did give signs preceding the rapture. He said there would be a monumental apostacy and the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, would stand in the holy place.

Paul reiterated these signs to the Thessalonian church - calling them the "great falling away" and the revelation of "the man of sin" - and stated that the coming of Christ and our gathering together to Him would not occur until these signs were fulfilled.

Imminence is, therefore, an unbiblical and false doctrine.

Mark Osgatharp

 

Those are not signs of the rapture Mark. They are signs of his bodily return to the earth. Sorry. If you would stop with the hodge-podge approach to Scripture, you would understand.

 

Amen, Brother Daniel David -- Preach it!

Mark Osgatharp: "But the Lord did give signs preceding the rapture. He said there would be a monumental apostacy and the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, would stand in the holy place.

Paul reiterated these signs to the Thessalonian church - calling them the "great falling away" and the revelation of "the man of sin" - and stated that the coming of Christ and our gathering together to Him would not occur until these signs were fulfilled."

Your statement seems to equate the "abomination
of desolation" in Matthew 24:15 with
the "revelation of the man of sin" in
2 Thessalonians 2:3. These two things are NOT
equal. The 'revelation of the man of sin" takes
place just after the "falling away" or pretribulation
rapture/resurrection. 3½-years later the man of sin
commits the "AOD = Abomination of Desolation".


There are no signs of the coming pretribulation
rapture/resurrection.
There are signs of the coninuation of the Church
Age.
There are signs of the coming wrath judgements
called the tribulation period.
There are signs of the coming physical Millinnial
Kingdom of Chrsit.
There are no signs of the coming pretribulation
rapture/resurrection.
Be ready to go at any time;
be ready to go all the time.

 

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

In light of this passage it is evident that you gentlemen have been sadly deceived.

Mark Osgatharp

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-6 (21KJ = 21st Century
King James):

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2. that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, 4. who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

In light of this passage it is evident that you, Sir, have been sadly deceived.

 

I see a lot of pre-tribbers talking, but still no verse that say the rapture can occur at any time..., still no verse that says that nothing has to happen before the rapture..., still no verse that says the "tribulation" is equal with the 70th week..., still no verse that says the 70th week is the wrath of God...

should I go on?

 

Ed, in a short response to your response to my weekend post, why would Christ and the Apostles admonish Christians to watch and wait if there were no signs of his coming? Certainly we are to be obedient "in season and out of season" and never are we told to let our guard down, or to stop hoping for the return of Christ.

I'm sorry if I didn't have clear thoughts in my last post--but you were right in saying "If we had a topic about reading the signs of the times,
I'd be glad to discuss what they signs of the times are in light of scripture." That was my point too--if Christ could come at any moment (and could have come at any moment since he left the diciples staring at the clouds), then there is no reason why we should be "watching": only "obeying." Does that make sense? If there was NO preceeding indication of his coming, all amount of "looking for" is in vain. Rather, if there are signs of "that day" of the "coming of the Lord Jesus Christ" we should be discussing modern events, whether they be signs of Christs return or not.

Also, you never addressed your interpretation of "falling away" to mean "rapture." How can Christians fall away if they are all taken up and gone?

-Pluv

 

Danrusdad: "I see a lot of pre-tribbers talking, but still no verse that say the rapture can occur at any time..., still no verse that says that nothing has to happen before the rapture..., still no verse that says the "tribulation" is equal with the 70th week..., still no verse that says the 70th week is the wrath of God...

should I go on?"

No, you overstepped your bounds already.
A discrete person would stop there.
Are you making demands on we pretribbers OR ON GOD?
Be very carefull how you answer, it is a trick question.

I make a living writing requirements for software.
I make a very good living writing requirements for software.
I know requirements and requirement wrighting inside out.
In my educated opinion, you are way out of line with these
requirements.

And additionaly, Brother Danrusdad, you seem NOT to know much
about the mathametical/engineering concept of extrapolation.
In Extrapolation one goes beyond the given data.
Here at the development of an eschatology, we are working way
beyond the given data.

So i judge it this way: why have the hopeless end times
scenario of having going through the tribulation period wrath judgements
when the hopefull end times senario of the prettribulation
rapture is avaiable.

I see see two groups of post-tribbers talking and peterests talking,
but still no verse that say the rapture cannot occur at any
time, still no verse that specifies what has to happen before the rapture,
still no verse that says the "tribulation" is not equal with
the 70th week..., still no verse that says the 70th week
is not the wrath of God.

Even yet, there are 100s of unanswered pretribulation rapture arguments
that have gone by unchecked.

Here, have a few scriptures comparting the unscheduled signless
pretribualtion rapture/resurrection WITH the scheduled sign full
postribualtion rapture/resurrection. In fact, the TRIBULATION itself
is the biggest sign of the Coming of Jesus in which He destroyed the
Antichrist and sets up a physical Millinnal Kingdom on a
physical earth.


\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,

Two events mentioned here:
1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2) our gathering together unto him

Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Two events mentioned here:
1) blessed hope
2) the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

These two events are mentioned seperately
throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which
was a mystery in the O.T. is now mentioned
in the N.T.

Rapture Passages (the gathering):

Matthew 24:31-44
Mark 13
Luke 21
John 14:1-3
Romans 8:19
1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
1 Timothy 6:14
2 Timothy 4:1,8
Hebrews 9:28
1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
1 John 2:28-3:2
Jude 1:21
Revelation 2:25

Second Advent Passages
(Jesus comes again in power and glory):

Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
Matthew 13:41
Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
Mark 13
Luke 21
Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
1 Thessalonians 3:13
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
1 Peter 4:12-19
2 Peter 3:1-14
Jude 1:14-15
Revelation 4-19

 

Rotate the camera 180º

I hope for the day when Jesus shall come get
us real Christians and we fall away from
this ol' earth right into the hands of Jesus.

Did you know the earth is round? Standing
eople are sticking to it all round the world
with all their feet pointing to the
center. So folks in Australia have their
head pointing in the opposite direction
as do we in the USofA. If they rise,
i go down - if I fall off, they rise.
It is a matter of location. Anyway, metaphors
can work in either direciton.

 

But the Bible does not use that language--we are taken up, not fallen down. That is a constant in scripture. And I as an Engineer understand fully extrapolation/interpolation, and the Word gives us plenty of data points, none of which are erroneous. So we need not "regress" to find some middle ground, assuming that the data is wrong. Rather, we need to curve fit where the Bible is not filled in.

-Pluvivs

 

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

Mark Osgatharp

 

Ed: “Are you making demands on we pretribbers OR ON GOD?”

I am making a demand that you provide clear, scriptural support for the belief you assert.

Ed: “I make a living writing requirements for software. I make a very good living writing requirements for software. I know requirements and requirement wrighting inside out.”

Your profession and/or level of education is irrelevant to the discussion and to how you interpret the scriptures.

Ed: “In my educated opinion, you are way out of line with these requirements.”

I’m out of line to ask for scriptural support ?!? I, rather, thought myself a good Berean, searching the scriptures for what you promote as truth.

Ed: “And additionaly, Brother Danrusdad, you seem NOT to know much. about the mathametical/engineering concept of extrapolation. In Extrapolation one goes beyond the given data.”

Resorting to ad hominem attacks does not help your case. In fact, it shows your desperation. You don’t know anything about me or what I know. (As a matter of fact, I use extrapolation/interpolation frequently, and I know that it is, at best, a guess based on other data. The results are only as good as the initial data points; and it is precisely with your beginning data points that I have issue) Perhaps you should show me my errors from the scriptures, and be specific please!

Ed: “Here at the development of an eschatology, we are working way beyond the given data.”

No, YOU are working way beyond the given data. I, on the other hand, am working with the plain sense meaning of the scriptures as they are given. Further, this is a clear admission on your part that there are no clear scriptures supporting a pre-trib rapture, as you have to resort to “extrapolation” and inference to justify your belief.

Ed: “So i judge it this way: why have the hopeless end times scenario of having going through the tribulation period wrath judgements when the hopefull end times senario of the prettribulation rapture is avaiable.”

So your criterion for establishing truth is whether it gives you hope? What happened to believing the scriptures, wherever they may lead? Personally, I derive great hope from knowing that, while Christians and Jews will be persecuted during the Great Tribulation, Jesus will return and cut short that time and remove us before God pours out His wrath. However, how WE define hope is irrelevant; how the scriptures define hope is paramount. The hope is that we are not subject to God’s wrath, not that we are spared from the Great Tribulation of the anti-christ (Note: these are 2 different periods of time!) Furthermore, if this is your understanding of the pre-wrath view, then it is obvious where you are in error. Perhaps we could achieve more if you would state what you think the pre-wrath view says.

Ed: “I see see two groups of post-tribbers talking and peterests talking, but still no verse that say the rapture cannot occur at any time, still no verse that specifies what has to happen before the rapture, still no verse that says the "tribulation" is not equal with the 70th week..., still no verse that says the 70th week is not the wrath of God.”

Are you serious?!? Any first year logic student can destroy this. Talk about out of line requirements! You cannot prove a universal negative, exactly what you are asking us to do. The burden of proof is on you to support your belief with scripture. Do support all of your Biblical beliefs with, “the bible doesn’t say I can’t”? This is dangerous ground my friend. So as long as the bible does not say two things are not equal then I can equate them? Did I get this right? Further, I can show, FROM THE SCRIPTURE, that the Great Tribulation is not equivalent to the 70th week, AND that both of these are not equivalent to the Day of the Lord (see below!).

Ed: “Even yet, there are 100s of unanswered pretribulation rapture arguments that have gone by unchecked.”

This is known in debate circles as “elephant hurling”. It is a common tactic among evolutionists. The gist is, “There’s sooo much evidence I couldn’t possibly list it all…” I would be happy to "check" your arguments; why don't you present them one at a time--with scripture!

Ed : “2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873): Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Two events mentioned here:
1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2) our gathering together unto him”

Two events, inextricably connected, as has been stated before, and as the scripture consistently presents them. Not 7 years apart!

Ed: “Titus 2:13 (KJV1873): Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Two events mentioned here:
1) blessed hope
2) the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

These two events are mentioned separately throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which was a mystery in the O.T. is now mentioned in the N.T.”

According to Titus 2:13, these two events are mentioned AT THE SAME TIME, contrary to what you just said, since they are both in the SAME verse. There is no mention of a 7 year hiatus between the two. I fail to see how the fact that the rapture was a mystery in the OT is relevant to this argument.

Ed: “Rapture Passages (the gathering):

Matthew 24:31-44 Mark 13 Luke 21 John 14:1-3 Romans 8:19 1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22 Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5 Colossians 3:4 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3 1 Timothy 6:14 2 Timothy 4:1,8 Hebrews 9:28 1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4 1 John 2:28-3:2 Jude 1:21 Revelation 2:25

Second Advent Passages
(Jesus comes again in power and glory):

Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3 Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15 Matthew 13:41 Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64 Mark 13 Luke 21 Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21 1 Thessalonians 3:13
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8 1 Peter 4:12-19 2 Peter 3:1-14 Jude 1:14-15 Revelation 4-19.”

See above note on “elephant hurling”. Do you think this proves your case? Listing a bunch of scriptures? I can list the same scriptures with different headings, will that convince you that I am right and you are wrong? You’re going to have to work a little harder than that…

Scriptural Proof that the 70th week, Great Tribulation, and the Day of the Lord are NOT equivalent:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Point 1: The 70th week, as we would probably agree, lasts for 7 years. And the abomination of desolation occurs at the midpoint (3 ½ years in).

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation , spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Point 2: According to Christ’s own words, the Great Tribulation will not begin until AFTER the AoD at the midpoint of the 70th week. This shows that the 70th week and the GT are NOT the same.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven , and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come ; and who shall be able to stand?


Point 3: Joel, Jesus, and John all agree: the Day of the Lord will be preceded by a specific sign in the sun, moon, and stars, signifying its arrival. According to Jesus, it’s AFTER the Great Tribulation; and according to John, it is at the breaking of the 6th seal. (Incidentally, this also proves that the breaking of the seals are NOT a part of the wrath of God, and therefore, there is nothing that keeps the church from this period of time. Otherwise, you have the unfortunate belief that the martyred believers of the 5th seal are killed as a part of God's wrath)

Conclusion:
a) The 70th week will last for 7 years,
b) The Great Tribulation will begin at the midpoint and will last an undetermined amount of time,
c) The Day of the Lord will not begin until after the GT and after the triple sign is given in the heavens


Therefore, the 70th week DOES NOT = the Great Tribulation DOES NOT = the Day of the Lord. (Note: there is no scripture that calls the 70th week the ‘tribulation’ period).

[ June 29, 2004, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: danrusdad ]

 

Pluvivs: " ... why would Christ
and the apostles admonish Christians
to warch and wait if there are no
signs of His coming."

1. I said there are no signs of His coming to
get us at the pretribulation rapture.
there are plenty of signs of His coming to
defeat the antichrist and set up His Millinnial
Kingdom. We just won't be here to see those signs.

2. The purpose of eschatology is
to exhort untobetter living in this age
(see 2 Peter 3, especially 2 Pter 3:11 and
2 Peter 3:14).
Watching and Praying is better living!

Pluvivs: " ... why would Christ
and the apostles admonish Christians
to warch and wait if there are no
signs of His coming."

1. I said there are no signs of His coming to
get us at the pretribulation rapture.
there are plenty of signs of His coming to
defeat the antichrist and set up His Millinnial
Kingdom. We just won't be here to see those signs.

2. The purpose of eschatology is
to exhort untobetter living in this age
(see 2 Peter 3, especially 2 Pter 3:11 and
2 Peter 3:14).
Watching and Praying is better living!

Danrusdad: "I fail to see ... "

I noticed that a lot. I gave you a list of
verses to show that the rapture/gathering is
a different event than the Second Coming in power
to destroy the antichrist and set up a physcial
Millinnial Kingdom. That is a fact.
Some, especially postrib premills, believe that
these two seperate sets of events occur
on the same 24-hour-day some even the
same 60-minute hour.

These scriptures make a good outline
of our 3-year presentation of what i've only hinted
at so far. Actually, you could save time if you
would find my writings here, mostly in the Theology
Forum.

 

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

Note: Whereas Paul warned the Thessalonians to "let no man deceive" them into believing that Christ's coming and our gathering together unto Him are immiment, it is evident that the Lord foreknew that men would try to deceive His people into believing this false doctrine and therefore gave this forewarning. In light of which it should come as no suprise that so many are deceiving others into believing this heresy.

Mark Osgatharp

 

Mark, your error is in your assumption that the gathering is the rapture. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it ain't.

A landmarker is accusing someone of heresy. Snicker snicker.

 

Does this means that true Christians has a tendency to fall away? Coz my understanding of this is that the true shall be revealed from the false Christians because the false Christians are the ones that will fall away.

 

Does this means that true Christians has a tendency to fall away? Coz my understanding of this is that the true shall be revealed from the false Christians because the false Christians are the ones that will fall away. </font>[/QUOTE]Matthew 15:14 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)

Leave them alone! They are blind guides. And if the blind guide the blind, both will fall into a pit."

 

IF 1,000 years is a 24-hour-day;
then 7-years is but 10 minutes of that day.

Dandusdad: //This is known in debate
circles as "elephant hurling".
... The gist is, "Therer's sooo
much evidence I couldn't possibly
list it all ... " I would be happy to "check" your arguments;
why don't you present your arguments
then one at a time --- with scripture.//

Most people want to have a YES/NO argumetnt.
I'll give consideration to your request.
I will not be near a comptuer 2-6 July.

I'm already in such a discussion with a couple of people
who drop by ever couple of weeks each quarter.
What I've said, what they hafvee said, is still
here on this Theoology Forum.

Back the the FORUM LEVEL page (the one that lists all the
Topics in this forum) at the top right is a place
what says "Show topics from last -x- days"
Change to "Show all Topics". You will then see a choice of
22 pages of topics in the Baptist Theology &
Bible Study Forum. Look for large topics.

Yep, a search on my memberf number 4203 shows 80 topics
still there where i've posted, most about eschatology.

Even an elephant can be wholy eaten, if you eat a small
portion each day FOR MANY YEARS.

 

That is a perserverence of the saints issue. I see now a bit more where you are coming from. Nevertheless, even if Christians cannot fall away, I repreat my question of 'how is it you can interpret "fall away" as "raptured up?" '

I know not of any other scripture that would give backing to this picture, i.e. that we fall into the hands of God in a good way (Heb 10:28-31 speaks of it in a clearly negative way, as judgment, not redemption, upon those who "trodden under foot" the blood of Christ). My lack of knowledge does not make knowledge, and so I invite any or all to show the answer to this question.

-Pluvivs

 

Titus 2:13 (HCSB):

while we wait for the blessed hope and the appearing
of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Danrusdad says about this:
"There is no mention of a 7-year HIATUS between the two.

I'm contending that "blessed hope" and
"the appearing of the glory of our great God and
Savior, Jesus Christ" are two different sets of events.
Danrusdad is arguing they are the same set of events
with two different descriptors.
Danrusday could be easy and say "Yes, Ed, you are right,
twosets of events -- BOTH SETS OF EVENTS happen the same
24-hour day!" But no, he wants to be argumentative.

The 7-year break between the two is NOT present in Titus 2:13.
But then you can't do everything in every verse.
I also note that nothing is said in Titus 2:13 about the
neat way one can use velcro to hold one's shoe on one's foot.
I know when i was 6 or so my Daddy taught me how to lace and
tie my shoe right. But now that i'm old and can barely reach
my foot, it is nice to have a velco strap to hold on
my work shoes (my dress shoe is a cowperson boot, ain't it fun livin'
in the SouthWest )

Yep, the 7-years comes from Daniel 27
and Revelation 11 & 12. Revelation specifies several
periods of 3½-years - the first half of Daniel's 70th week
and the second half of Daniel's week. Let me say that again:
Revelation specifies several periods of 3½-years (in the
form of 42 months, time/times/half-a-time, 1260days)
These 5 occurances list 4 different features of the
tribulation period (the last 3½-years are the GREAT TRIBULATION).
but it is me that puts which half of the 7-year-day
each event falls.
(Just as we have the man of sin in 2 Thess 2, Beast from the Sea of Revelation 13,
and we combine them into all being about the Antichrist.
The Bible never says the 2 Thess 2 man of sin is the ANtichrist,
we say that ourselves.

Need to run off to work.